General lessons from trackman

[birly-shirly]

I'd be interested in what people, teachers or players, with regular access to trackman (or similar) facilities have gleaned that's of general interest and application

For example, if I were a busy teacher using trackman with my students, I would hope that I would eventually draw some conclusions on:

- how consistently different players at different levels swing the club;

- where people tend to have consistency, and where they tend to vary e.g. does the horizontal alignment of the path through the ball tend to be consistent from shot to shot, more or less so than face alignment?

- is face alignment at impact more closely correlated with the swing path, or the target line?

- is variation in angle of attack a big issue for players? with the same club, or through the bag?

- does it tend to be easier to start with fixing path faults or face faults;

- is it better to work on movement efficiency (and clubhead speed) before or after "alignment" factors

- at what point, as you move down through the set, does a problem that is big enough to cause ballflight issues with the driver, effectively disappear to the naked eye as a result of loft and backspin

I'm sure there are other issues that come up in practice. And maybe there are no real trends on the points above. Please comment as appropriate.

 

[Brian Manzella]

General Answers from the General.

...how consistently different players at different levels swing the club

Everyone "swings" consistently, until they see the ball.

Then they start guessing.

This includes PGA TOUR players.

where people tend to have consistency, and where they tend to vary e.g. does the horizontal alignment of the path through the ball tend to be consistent from shot to shot, more or less so than face alignment?

People have NO ABILITY AT ALL—until you work on it—separating face from path.

is face alignment at impact more closely correlated with the swing path, or the target line?

The path.

Easy.

is variation in angle of attack a big issue for players? with the same club, or through the bag?

No.

...does it tend to be easier to start with fixing path faults or face faults?

We like face first on cold slicers, and path on everyone else.

But that is a BIG TIME generalization.

In the real ORANGE world of lessons, you can attack from MULTIPLE directions. In other words, more than just face or path. Maybe angle of attack or Plane Angle (Vertical Swing Plane).

is it better to work on movement efficiency (and clubhead speed) before or after "alignment" factors?

AFTER!

...at what point, as you move down through the set, does a problem that is big enough to cause ballflight issues with the driver, effectively disappear to the naked eye as a result of loft and backspin?

Believe it or not, it is often the other way around.

 

[birly-shirly]

Thanks for your responses.

Probably the biggest surprise for me, if I've understood you correctly, is that you're seeing so little consistency from shot to shot. I'd have expected to hear that some variables (probably path) were relatively stable - with ballflight variations coming from changes in, say, face alignment or off-centre contact. But it doesn't seem as if you're seeing even this.

When you say "everyone swings consistently, until they see the ball" - I guess you're saying that people react to their ballflight, and not necessarily in a good way.

Does this mean that you have to train your students to focus on the numbers, and ignore ballflight? At least in the short term?

And do you think that eventually students will be able to make better sense of their ballflight when they're away from the monitor?

About your last point - I believe you, though I'm not sure I understand!
I would guess that an in-to-out swing path might get more pronounced with shorter clubs, and that some people will find it easier to close the clubface through impact with shorter clubs - but I don't know if this is what you're saying. I'd be interested if you have a theory (or indeed facts!) as to what is going on when shots get worse as you move to shorter clubs.

 

[softconsult]

This in no way is any kind of criticism, so please dont take it that way.

Birly's question about Brian saying "until they see the ball" is a perfect illustration of the difficulty of writing and reading based on one way communication.

Brian says "until they see the ball". Birly understands that to mean "until they see the ball flight". Either could be correct.

I suspect Brian means people's practice swings are consistent , but when they see the ball sitting there the actual swing changes.

I would think that the last answer is explained by the loft of shorter irons. More backspin offsets sidespin and the subtle mistakes don't show up to the
naked eye. Wedge more forgiving than a Driver.

 

[Matt Bryda]

I suspect Brian means people's practice swings are consistent , but when they see the ball sitting their the actual swing changes.

I think what Brian is saying is that once someone sees their ball slice they change their swing to play the slice, swing further left so they can find the ball.

Matt

 

[softconsult]

I went back and re-read it.
On second thought, I think he did mean ball flight.

 

[greenfree]

Off topic, but a good example why written golf instructions often can be interpeted incorrectly, as above, one person "thinks it means this" and another "thinks it means that".

 

[birly-shirly]

This in no way is any kind of criticism, so please dont take it that way.

Birly's question about Brian saying "until they see the ball" is a perfect illustration of the difficulty of writing and reading based on one way communication.

Brian says "until they see the ball". Birly understands that to mean "until they see the ball flight". Either could be correct.

I suspect Brian means people's practice swings are consistent , but when they see the ball sitting there the actual swing changes.

I would think that the last answer is explained by the loft of shorter irons. More backspin offsets sidespin and the subtle mistakes don't show up to the
naked eye. Wedge more forgiving than a Driver.

Well yep - as regards "until they see the ball" I did think what you thought I thought, and what you now think...

I understand the logic what what you are saying about the loft of shorter irons being more forgiving - but I also think that Brian was saying something quite different and counter-intuitive, that some faults show up in the short irons, but not in the longer clubs.

I'm hoping that we'll get clarification on both points straight from the horse's mouth.

 

[neshtastnikdolen]

Whats up pals

Hello everybody. Im new to Brian Manzella Golf Academy - Home. Nice to meet you all!



___________________________________________________
RPGs Online

 

[SteveT]

I'd be interested in what people, teachers or players, with regular access to trackman (or similar) facilities have gleaned that's of general interest and application ...........

Great questions, and the present day sophistication with TrackMan makes me harken back the days when the first launch monitor from Titleist was made available to the public on a large traveling van manned with several people. Who remembers the Titleist launch monitor using their balls with the three 'sharpie' dots in a triangle formation?

Then came the portable laser and strobe launch monitors, which are now obsoleted by the radar monitors and using the D-plane algorithms.

Prior to TrackMan, a launch monitor session was considered somewhat useless unless the golfer had a single digit handicap rating and an expected, established golfswing action. The high handicappers had difficulty reproducing a series of consistent monitor swing results, and I saw examples where 2 readings out of 10 were considered barely usable.

Surely the TrackMan monitor is only truly productive for those with an accomplished, consistent golfswing, and not for those still trying to find a basic golfswing motion. What do you consider the cutoff and minimal golfer capability before TrackMan is effective?

 

[SteveT]

Everyone "swings" consistently, until they see the ball.

Then they start guessing.

This includes PGA TOUR players.

LOL, so true !!!! I had a golfing buddy who literally froze over the ball on the tee. We had to verbally encourage him to start his swing ..!!!

To cure him, I put a ping pong ball on the tee and he walloped it with fearless abandon ...!!!!!

Maybe frustrated golfers see the dense golf ball as a near immovable object weighing a pound (454 gms.) and the root of all their evil golf problems ... ya think??!!!!

It was Harvey Penick who wrote in his Little Red Book on page 74: "The golfing area of the brain is a fragile thing that is terribly susceptible to suggestion. Golfers are gullible."

Okay, so he was referring to the use of the term "choking", but I think the underlying psychological hangup is still applicable to the mental relation between the brain, body and ball ... the 3-b's ... LOL