Greg Norman

[birdie_man]

We don't talk about this guy much but no doubt he is worth talking about.

What's the deal with him?

I don't think I have ever heard a Manzella-ized version of why he has had so many disappointments.

Manzella-ized swing analysis? (even brief)

Everyone seems to have an opinion on Norman...there has not been much discussion in here.

I think often that some are scared to say good things about him for some reason.

The guy is often called the greatest driver of all time...has 2 majors and many PGA victories...tons of 2nd place finishes including some friggen SERIOUS robberies.

What's the deal with Norman? Where does he sit? (among the greats)

Johnny Miller thinks he can still contend if he tries...I have thought the same. He's in great shape and still hits it far.

 

[GPM1985]

Contend on the PGA tour? I'm not sure about that. He's 54 years old, barely plays, and probably has too many tough losses to look back on. Do you remember what he did at the British last year? Brutal.

I'm always amazed when I realize that he only has two majors to his name. It just seems like he should have more, and I think Norman would agree with that. Through a mixture of bad luck (Mize's chip-in) and ill-timed losses of composure ('96 Masters melt-down), he doesn't have the major wins you'd expect of a player with his talent.

I'm too young to have watched him in his prime, but it seems like when he was on, he was ON. It also seems like he really went after it with the driver and hit it pretty straight, which makes me wonder about another dominant player I won't mention in this thread.

 

[savydan]

He was definately The Man after Tom Watson and before Tiger.

This was in the day before first and second round TV coverage, the Golf Channel, or the internet.

Unless you checked the newspaper, you didn't really know what was going on until network coverage started on the back nine on Saturday.

But there he was - making a move or on top of the leaderboard on Saturday afternoon.

Network TV started the "cheater" leaderboard with Norman - posting him as high as his score allowed regardless of how many holes he had completed. Now they only do this with Tiger.

Great driver, good short game, great short range putter. Had a tendency to block iron shots right under pressure (i.e. 86 Masters).

More back luck and amazing shots against him in majors than imaginable. Combine that with some likely mental issues under extreme pressure and you have 2 B.O.'s, tons of world-wide wins and no U.S. majors.

 

[birdie_man]

Contend on the PGA tour? I'm not sure about that. He's 54 years old, barely plays, and probably has too many tough losses to look back on. Do you remember what he did at the British last year? Brutal.

The 'operative' phrase was "if he tries" GPM.

I saw what he did at the British. He came out of nowhere and almost won!

There is a lot of talk about Vijay, K. Perry, Norman and other older guys with length.

I say they can compete for as long as they want and as long as they retain distance.

Sam Snead maybe is looked at as a bit of an anomaly with how well he played later on and maybe in some ways he is (and always was)...but I think more guys are capable.

As for tough losses, it sure ain't an immediate boost of confidence (like a WIN) but the more you lose the more you learn. Or at least it should be that way.

It also seems like he really went after it with the driver and hit it pretty straight, which makes me wonder about another dominant player I won't mention in this thread.

That is a great point.

You can overdo anything but I can't see Tiger being a real "smooth" guy ever. It is not his nature to be like Els. (who is ALWAYS super smooth)

I am the same way. I'm gonna try to throttle it back a little but...large doses of smooth and slow, for me, is anemia.

I think Tiger needs other mechanical adjustments.

 

[Notorious B.E.N.]

I really think he could contend on tour birdie man but I don't think he'd win. Faldo probably could too. Miller said in one of his books that Norman was the greatest driver of the ball ever(accuracy and length.)

 

[GPM1985]

What do you guys mean by "contend"? Make cuts? Late tee time on Sunday?

I would say that Greg Norman has as much of a chance at regularly competing on tour as Michael Jordan has at starting for the Bulls next season. I think it would require a comparable amount of work for each to regain form.

I realize that this argument hinges on "if he tries," but he won't, and I think it's more reasonable to conclude that he wouldn't be successful on tour even if he did bust his butt trying. That's just my opinion, and know that it's coming from a guy who just recently admitted that MJ will never return to the court.

 

[JON B]

Norman was great and I still believe he could contend on certain tracks on tour, but the definition of contend is a little ambiguous. For me, contending for Greg Norman would be making a few cuts and just not embarassing himself in general, which I would think he is very capable of doing IF he devoted some serious effort to golf.

 

[nwb]

I like Norman but he had some swing flaws that really showed up under pressure. Suprisingly great short game.

One thing i have wondered about,and having read his book now believe, is that he tended to focus a bit too much on his businesses and maybe not enough on winning majors. Just my opinion though, but i got his book out expecting some good golf stuff and it was more business orientated than golf.

 

[fronesis]

I am the same way. I'm gonna try to throttle it back a little but...large doses of smooth and slow, for me, is anemia.

Hey birdie_man, only having fun with you here, but I assume you mean anathema?

Otherwise, I want to hear the explanation for how hitting it smooth makes you anemic!

 

[birdie_man]

Hey birdie_man, only having fun with you here, but I assume you mean anathema?

Otherwise, I want to hear the explanation for how hitting it smooth makes you anemic!

Oops!

What I really meant to write was 'asthma.' I start weezing and everything.

Thanks fronesis!!

...



Hehe...

I did mean anemic though really. (as far as I know I have the meaning correct)

Maybe I can finish this post later I'm writing on a Wii. (very awkward)

 

[birdie_man]

What do you guys mean by "contend"? Make cuts? Late tee time on Sunday?

I would say that Greg Norman has as much of a chance at regularly competing on tour as Michael Jordan has at starting for the Bulls next season. I think it would require a comparable amount of work for each to regain form.

I realize that this argument hinges on "if he tries," but he won't, and I think it's more reasonable to conclude that he wouldn't be successful on tour even if he did bust his butt trying. That's just my opinion, and know that it's coming from a guy who just recently admitted that MJ will never return to the court.

I know you are making an analogy...but Basketball requires more physical ability than golf.

The argument does hinge on "if"...and that is mostly all I was concerning myself with.

Yes, I am a Master of the hypothetical, GPM.

Norman was great and I still believe he could contend on certain tracks on tour, but the definition of contend is a little ambiguous. For me, contending for Greg Norman would be making a few cuts and just not embarassing himself in general, which I would think he is very capable of doing IF he devoted some serious effort to golf.

Yesyes I do mean IF. I am not trying to make a "call." Those are some pretty tall odds, as things are.

I am examining potential.

...

So to clear up what was in fact ambiguous:

I think he could still win a big event, is what I mean(t).

His still has a good bit of length. He still keeps himself in good shape as far as I know. And I don't see how the rest of his ability could have suddenly just disappeared. (and I am not talking about rust)

His drive may have. But that is up to him. Or at least it is what it is.

Would I put money on a Norman comeback? No those are pretty tall odds as things are.

I just mean I think there is still potential.

If an example is needed, Fred Funk could still win The Players CHAMPIONSHIP (I hate the name change BTW) at nearly 50 years old and hitting it shorter than Annika Sorenstam.

Yes, at 54 (Feb.) Norman is getting up there no doubt.

But on the other hand, aren't you supposed to know more things as you get older? If you haven't lost too much physical ability (as it relates to golf and hitting it a lot like you always have) then why ain't it possible to compete if you desire?

And yes he didn't win The Open last year but man he did come out of nowhere to lead on Sunday...hadn't been playing competitively...etc. etc. That is a pretty strong showing all things considered.

So yes...

There is probably a reason why Champion's Tour eligability starts at 50 years old...and no doubt the stats support higher scores around that age.

But I don't think every player automatically becomes a "write off" when they hit 50. Though some have more potential for longevity than others.

And we all know there is a lot of "untapped" in golf in general. It's why we hang out in here.

 

[birdie_man]

Carrying on...

It struck me...why was Nicklaus unable to compete later on? (I am thinking injuries but am unsure)

There must be other guys in the past who have retained length and physical ability into their 50s.

What happened to them and why?

I am seeking history.

 

[birdie_man]

Brian do you like Greg Norman's swing?

Was it an issue under pressure? (mechanically)

 

[burners]

What's not to like?

I think Norman's struggle was with the "less than full" shots. With short irons he always looked like he was really going after it.

Tons of spin too--too much when he was playing the Tour Edition ball.

Believe it was Miller who felt that if Norman could have learned a simple "punch" for half and 3/4 shots he would have won a few more big ones. I think some of his wayward shots were due to trying to take a little something off of it--fore right!

Great athlete and sportsman.

 

[fronesis]

Carrying on...

It struck me...why was Nicklaus unable to compete later on? (I am thinking injuries but am unsure)

There's physical conditioning, of course. Norman is in great shape compared to the shape Jack was in at that age...

BUT....don't forget the equipment changes!!

We are in a new era when folks with less physical strength and flexibility (i.e. older folks, but also kids) can hit the ball a LOT further than they used to be able to hit it. Jack turned 50 with balata balls and persimmon woods; it was a totally different game then.

The announcers don't talk about this a lot, but it's the reason why "old" has changed in the game. Back when Jack won the Masters at 46, it was considered utterly unbelievable, because at the time, anyone over 40 was considered old. Now we don't think of 45 as old at all, and we only think of 50 as really old because players can go to the senior tour.

Sam Snead, of course, is an exception to this, like he was in many other cases!

 

[savydan]

Birdie,

Nicklaus won a bunch of senior majors after he turned 50, but really lacked the desire to compete full-time or for much longer.

Burner,

Totally agree on Norman not having a puch iron type shot in his prime. Hit everything high based on his spine tilt and release and probably from getting his first instruction from his idol in Jack's :Golf My Way".

fronesis,

Agree. In fact I was somewhat surprised when I heard Kenny Perry would have been the oldest major winner. At the time, we all were thinking about Nicklaus being 6 years removed from 40 compared to Perry being 2 years from 50.

 

[coachwalls]

Carrying on...

It struck me...why was Nicklaus unable to compete later on? (I am thinking injuries but am unsure)

There must be other guys in the past who have retained length and physical ability into their 50s.

What happened to them and why?

I am seeking history.

My opinion, it takes a lot of mental strength, focus, drive, desire, what ever you want to call it, to compete at the top level of any sport. If you lose the mental side of it you will not compete no matter how good you are.

So, could Norman compete? Yes. Will he? No. He lacks the mental strength and desire to play golf at the highest level. His mental strength is put into other things like his businesses.

 

[birdie_man]

My opinion, it takes a lot of mental strength, focus, drive, desire, what ever you want to call it, to compete at the top level of any sport. If you lose the mental side of it you will not compete no matter how good you are.

So, could Norman compete? Yes. Will he? No. He lacks the mental strength and desire to play golf at the highest level. His mental strength is put into other things like his businesses.

It is true as far as I can tell, Coach.

 

[savydan]

.

Ever see Charles Barkley swing a club?

 

[birdie_man]

Ever see Charles Barkley swing a club?

I have seen him...do some...things, yes.

(he still needs Nsa btw)