Hands-controlled pivot thoughts - long / wacky?

[golfbulldog]

Hands controlled pivot can often start much debate…. There appear to be two camps:-

Brian’s “pivot-powered hands controlled pivot” … what I will call a “hand sensation” controlled pivot

and

other peoples “hand-movement hands controlled pivot”…


There is definitely a family of “hand movement" controlling pivot ( ie. players who advocate a specific hand / forearm motion as the primary effort from the top of the backswing and this then controls the pivot by reaction to the hand motion… or some similar reason)

Eg. Mike Austin, Peter Croker, Tom Tomasello (right arm swing), and i think Justin Tang (Comdpa on other webforum) http://www.iseekgolf.com/golfschool/articles.php?gs_id=16

When they perform their motions in slow motion they look a bit odd but in normal speed they often look exactly the same as people using hands sensation ( lag pressure) to control their pivots ( that is players whose downswing body pivot moves the hands and arms in such a way that the lag sensation created during transition/ backswing is maintained and directed at the ball/ aiming point)

It puzzles me how this might occur…. I just do not believe that simple movement of the right forearm causes everything else...

Their intention to move their hands/forearms has to be linked to an intention ( albeit subconcious) to connect with the ball on the ground.

That makes me think that whilst you are consciously thinking about moving your hands (Actually moving them in a way in which they will move naturally due to centrifugal force...) your subconcious is using your preprogrammed cerebellum to tilt your axis and compound shift...or whatever else you think you do…but your cerebellum knows where the ball is and is getting your body there for you... all your hand movement conscious thought is doing is providing feedback of where your hands are...

So the body is moving first ( unconsciously) in such a way that the hands move in the desired manner for a late release… etc

It may be that hand-movement controlling pivot is associated with proprioreceptors in the hands ( they detect the movement in joints and stretch/mechanoreceptors in the muscles)... a different form of unconscious sensory feedback to the lag pressure sensation... but it is still feedback of the hands position relative to the body and ball that is relayed to the brain and notably the cerebellum.

So both “hands sensation” ( lag pressure feelers) and “hand movers” are both providing feedback of hand position ( albeit through differing sensory mechanisms) to the brain so that the cerebellum can coordinate the preprogrammed , learned pivot motion adequately.

In the end they both have pivot slide and rotation and axis tilt and late release caused by centrifugal throw out action…. It is just that they swing their hands and monitor the path of the hands via differing sensory pathways…

I may be spouting rubbish here but give it a go… I have no proof but how else do we get very similar late release great swings performed by people who are adamant that the other group are wrong…


How can one explain why Mike Austin ( a hand movement controlled pivot guy) can have such a similar looking pivot motion to guys who use hand sensation ( lag pressure)...

My answer is that their reals are the same … just the feels are different… especially the hand movement people who talk about conscious throw from the top but never achieve it!!... Why because they have great axis tilt and pivots so that their shoulders drag their hands so low that centrigugl force whips the clubhead out into orbit before they have a chance to do anything…

MAybe...

 

[golfbulldog]

i know it is a bit speculative but it is the only way i can resolve so many similarites between swingers who are adamant that they are different.

Fire away... but put forward something in its place please... Conquer and rebuild... not just conquer and ransack....

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

interesting

 

[mandrin]

Hands controlled pivot can often start much debate…. There appear to be two camps:-

Brian’s “pivot-powered hands controlled pivot” … what I will call a “hand sensation” controlled pivot

and

other peoples “hand-movement hands controlled pivot”…


There is definitely a family of “hand movement" controlling pivot ( ie. players who advocate a specific hand / forearm motion as the primary effort from the top of the backswing and this then controls the pivot by reaction to the hand motion… or some similar reason)

Eg. Mike Austin, Peter Croker, Tom Tomasello (right arm swing), and i think Justin Tang (Comdpa on other webforum) http://www.iseekgolf.com/golfschool/articles.php?gs_id=16

When they perform their motions in slow motion they look a bit odd but in normal speed they often look exactly the same as people using hands sensation ( lag pressure) to control their pivots ( that is players whose downswing body pivot moves the hands and arms in such a way that the lag sensation created during transition/ backswing is maintained and directed at the ball/ aiming point)

It puzzles me how this might occur…. I just do not believe that simple movement of the right forearm causes everything else...

Their intention to move their hands/forearms has to be linked to an intention ( albeit subconcious) to connect with the ball on the ground.

That makes me think that whilst you are consciously thinking about moving your hands (Actually moving them in a way in which they will move naturally due to centrifugal force...) your subconcious is using your preprogrammed cerebellum to tilt your axis and compound shift...or whatever else you think you do…but your cerebellum knows where the ball is and is getting your body there for you... all your hand movement conscious thought is doing is providing feedback of where your hands are...

So the body is moving first ( unconsciously) in such a way that the hands move in the desired manner for a late release… etc

It may be that hand-movement controlling pivot is associated with proprioreceptors in the hands ( they detect the movement in joints and stretch/mechanoreceptors in the muscles)... a different form of unconscious sensory feedback to the lag pressure sensation... but it is still feedback of the hands position relative to the body and ball that is relayed to the brain and notably the cerebellum.

So both “hands sensation” ( lag pressure feelers) and “hand movers” are both providing feedback of hand position ( albeit through differing sensory mechanisms) to the brain so that the cerebellum can coordinate the preprogrammed , learned pivot motion adequately.

In the end they both have pivot slide and rotation and axis tilt and late release caused by centrifugal throw out action…. It is just that they swing their hands and monitor the path of the hands via differing sensory pathways…

I may be spouting rubbish here but give it a go… I have no proof but how else do we get very similar late release great swings performed by people who are adamant that the other group are wrong…


How can one explain why Mike Austin ( a hand movement controlled pivot guy) can have such a similar looking pivot motion to guys who use hand sensation ( lag pressure)...

My answer is that their reals are the same … just the feels are different… especially the hand movement people who talk about conscious throw from the top but never achieve it!!... Why because they have great axis tilt and pivots so that their shoulders drag their hands so low that centrigugl force whips the clubhead out into orbit before they have a chance to do anything…

MAybe...

golfbuldog,

If you really get into experimenting with opposing methods of instruction, such like holding the angle or throwing from the top there is indeed very likely perceived a totally different reality for each approach.

However as you indicated, when observing carefully poster boys of theses opposing styles they appear virtually identical. Hence, how to reconcile this paradox? I hope not too soon as it would take the charm away and likely be also the end of golf forums.

It would be interesting to experiment with young athletes without any experience or knowledge of golf. A simple experiment would be to explain as much as possible only with words to either retain the angle or throw it from the top.

These hypothetical athletes wouldn’t have any preconceived ideas about the swing and likely will show decisive differences in their swing when instructed to swing with opposing like instructions.

Concepts, etched out in our neuronal mass, can be very compelling and very difficult to change especially if they are not on a conscious level. Many beginning golfers are trying to hit directly behind the ball and try to steer to the ball to the target.

Once you are used to the image of plane(s) it is very difficult to completely eradicate it form your mind and swing truly 3D, i.e., imagine only the axes of rotation of body, arms and wrists in 3D.

I am very much enticed by the very simple but fascinating ideas of your country man, Edward de Bono, about how the brains work. Input information etches out, with time, stable patterns in the neuronal jello of the brains. Subsequent information then is forced to follow the established patterns.

Once established, patterns are very difficult to change and can perhaps be triggered from anywhere whilst still giving the same output response and strimuli to all the muscles throughout the body programmed by the pattern.

To make a long story short and stop meandering about - I agree with your ideas but don’t quite know the answer, just doing some educated guessing.

 

[mandrin]

golfbulldog,

I just had a quick look at the article you mentioned by Justin Tang - Your Driver: Armed For Power . It is perhaps a bit off topic but I just wanted to mention it here.

“Research has shown that the body only contributes 10% of power to the golf swing, whereas the speed of the hands and their actions contribute 90% of power.”

I would love if people making such bold statements would at least give a reference(s) to the research they deftly invoke as support for their ideas.

“I've absolutely no doubt that many will read this and misconstrue what I say to the effect of: "He says to just use the hands and not the body." An emphatic no - I said use the hands and the body will follow with all its might.”

The two statements above are contradicting. If the body only contibutes 10 % then it is not logic to mention that ‘the body will follow with all its might.’

If Justin Tang instead had said that focus or concentration on the hands is 90 % of what is needed for producing a good golfswing, fine; that would have made it a different ball game alltogether.

 

[golfbulldog]

golfbulldog,

I just had a quick look at the article you mentioned by Justin Tang - Your Driver: Armed For Power . It is perhaps a bit off topic but I just wanted to mention it here.

“Research has shown that the body only contributes 10% of power to the golf swing, whereas the speed of the hands and their actions contribute 90% of power.”

I would love if people making such bold statements would at least give a reference(s) to the research they deftly invoke as support for their ideas.

“I've absolutely no doubt that many will read this and misconstrue what I say to the effect of: "He says to just use the hands and not the body." An emphatic no - I said use the hands and the body will follow with all its might.”

The two statements above are contradicting. If the body only contibutes 10 % then it is not logic to mention that ‘the body will follow with all its might.’

If Justin Tang instead had said that focus or concentration on the hands is 90 % of what is needed for producing a good golfswing, fine; that would have made it a different ball game alltogether.

Justin has great example of a kinetic chain swing... medium build but long hitter... must have efficient kinetic chain... he has not always had late release... he developed it after much teaching ( AIs and himself)... he is very hand focused but i agree with you that he is all centrifugal force... so body spins and hands follow...ie . kinetic chain.... but he feels or at least intends the complete opposite....

So interesting.... great swing though!!

 

[golfbulldog]

flesh to my bare bones argument...

"Haptic perception
Gibson (1966) defines the haptic system as "The sensibility of the individual to the world adjacent to his body by use of his body". The haptic perceptual system is unusual in that it can include the sensory receptors from the whole body and is closely linked to the movement of the body so can have a direct effect on the world being perceived. The concept of haptic perception is closely allied to the concept of active touch that realizes that more information is gathered when a motor plan (movement) is associated with the sensory system, and that of extended physiological proprioception a realization that when using a tool such as a stick, the perception is transparently transferred to the end of the tool."

this extract from wikipedia ( can be unreliable , i know!!) but it introduces concept that is alien to some... namely that touch sensation is greatly enhanced if it is "active touch" ie. the brain sums up the amount of muscle movement being intended ( the brain output), the muscle sensory feedback as well as the pure sensory feedback systems ( the inputs) .... it is an interactive system.... a feedback loop...

if we just tune in to one aspect of the loop then maybe we miss out of information or opportunity to improve.

Each aspect of the feedback system is carried by different size neurones... more to follow on this later... different size neuron mean variable speed of conduction... may offer more feedback



Taken from Guyton's Textbook of Medical Physiology eighth edition. sorry not great scanner but look up golgi tendon organ, muscle spindle receptor ( both conduct at 90-120 metre per second) and compare with pressure , deep touch sensation (slower maybe 60 metre per second)

See how many different forms of sensation there are which might be involved in our appreciation of lag sensation... conduct at different rates too... see how the feedback sensation from muscle tendon receptors is very fast.... maybe part of active touch... maybe...

 

[JeffM]

I think That Justin Tang doesn't understand golf biomechanics.

Tang stated-: "To prove this to yourself, just take a shaft and tuck the butt end into your armpit. Now, try to create a "swish" sound just by rotating your body hard." He was comparing clubhead speed when using his usual swing to a swing when wedging the butt end of the club in his armpit. What a stupid argument? Of course, one cannot generate great clubhead speed with the body alone, with the clubshaft attached to the body rather than being at the end of the arms. The golf swing works like a double pendulum swing action model - forces generated at the central hinge point cause the central torso to shift-rotate and energy is transmitted to the arms via centrifugal forces. The maintenance of maximum wrist lag is essential in this model, and the final clubhead speed is dependent on optimised operation of the entire system (central core and periphery).

Tang also objects to hip rotation being the initiating downswing force - because he believes it will simply cause an OTT move (due to spinning). What Tang fails to understand is that the initiating hip move must be a shift-rotation hip move and that the shift must precede the rotation. If a golfer starts with a hip shift, it will cause the right elbow to be pulled towards the right hip area, the right shoulder to drop downwards (in a rotatory motion around a bent-over spine) towards the ball and the clubshaft to drop into the "slot". All these movements do not require active arms/forearms. Active right forearm movement can supplement swing power when the hands approach the delivery position, if the ACTIVE right forearm power works in perfect harmony with the centrifugal forces already set into operation by torque forces acting at the central hinge point.

Jeff.

 

[JeffM]

Golfbuldog

I don't know what argument you are going to present regarding "sensory feedback" from muscles/tendons via nerves. I personally don't think that nerve conduction speeds and the brain's mental response time can be fast enough to make any difference AFTER one starts the downswing - considering that the entire downswing takes only 200 msec to complete. Any sensation that a golfer has during the downswing can be reported after the swing is completed, but I do not believe that a golfer can respond to those sensations DURING the golf downswing in such a manner that he can alter the downswing while it is occurring.

Jeff.

 

[puttmad]

....

Active right forearm movement can supplement swing power when the hands approach the delivery position, if the ACTIVE right forearm power works in perfect harmony with the centrifugal forces already set into operation by torque forces acting at the central hinge point.

Jeff.

Don't completely agree with you on that one Jeff...you are completely ignoring the "throw from the top" forearm moves of Braid, Austin, Shauger etc. and recently I have been told that jack Nicklaus did it as well...

 

[birdie_man]

golfbulldog,

I just had a quick look at the article you mentioned by Justin Tang - Your Driver: Armed For Power . It is perhaps a bit off topic but I just wanted to mention it here.

“Research has shown that the body only contributes 10% of power to the golf swing, whereas the speed of the hands and their actions contribute 90% of power.”

I would love if people making such bold statements would at least give a reference(s) to the research they deftly invoke as support for their ideas.

mandrin...I agree......and I've called him on this one before. Sounds very very fishy to me.

 

[golfbulldog]

I think That Justin Tang doesn't understand golf biomechanics.

Tang stated-: "To prove this to yourself, just take a shaft and tuck the butt end into your armpit. Now, try to create a "swish" sound just by rotating your body hard." He was comparing clubhead speed when using his usual swing to a swing when wedging the butt end of the club in his armpit. What a stupid argument? Of course, one cannot generate great clubhead speed with the body alone, with the clubshaft attached to the body rather than being at the end of the arms. The golf swing works like a double pendulum swing action model - forces generated at the central hinge point cause the central torso to shift-rotate and energy is transmitted to the arms via centrifugal forces. The maintenance of maximum wrist lag is essential in this model, and the final clubhead speed is dependent on optimised operation of the entire system (central core and periphery).

Tang also objects to hip rotation being the initiating downswing force - because he believes it will simply cause an OTT move (due to spinning). What Tang fails to understand is that the initiating hip move must be a shift-rotation hip move and that the shift must precede the rotation. If a golfer starts with a hip shift, it will cause the right elbow to be pulled towards the right hip area, the right shoulder to drop downwards (in a rotatory motion around a bent-over spine) towards the ball and the clubshaft to drop into the "slot". All these movements do not require active arms/forearms. Active right forearm movement can supplement swing power when the hands approach the delivery position, if the ACTIVE right forearm power works in perfect harmony with the centrifugal forces already set into operation by torque forces acting at the central hinge point.

Jeff.

Jeff, do not underestimate what Justin does or doesn't understand... he has an outstanding knowledge of all conventional golf literature and has studied TGM both in book and on the tee... he has used it to develop his current very impressive swing...

The fascination is that he used to swing well but nothing special when he was applying the conventional knowledge that you describe....

BUT he has added 10 mph to his driver swing by trying to do what he says he does.... the guy can hit the ball realy well... he knows his stuff... and your stuff and yet his stuff is working... that is the weird bit!

 

[golfbulldog]

Golfbuldog

I don't know what argument you are going to present regarding "sensory feedback" from muscles/tendons via nerves. I personally don't think that nerve conduction speeds and the brain's mental response time can be fast enough to make any difference AFTER one starts the downswing - considering that the entire downswing takes only 200 msec to complete. Any sensation that a golfer has during the downswing can be reported after the swing is completed, but I do not believe that a golfer can respond to those sensations DURING the golf downswing in such a manner that he can alter the downswing while it is occurring.

Jeff.

Yes i know the timing issue of a simple feedback method makes it impossible but... i would suggest that it is primarily a ballistic movement based on cerebellar activity which has been trained using feedback from drills, previous swing etc.... or something like that.... i did one term of neurophysiology 16 years ago... not claiming to have all the jargon details BUT...

At some stage in the swing there is a period of gathering in sensory information before the cerebellar program is chosen and fired in an almost unstoppable manner ( i know tiger occasionally stops his downswing when he hears a click of camera... but i bet the camera went click in takeaway!)

Anyway... it does appear that people who think about consciously moving their hands along the delivery path for maximum late release are able to combine this with rapid pivot speed... 2 ballistic programs that run together ?? maybe...allows greater speed than the hands sensing lag feedback which , although ballistic in an expert) is often learnt at slower speed .... asimple feedback loop only allows the pivot to turn at the speed governed by the pressure sensor in the hand, its neural pathway to the brain and brain processing speed....slow system.

Better to learn the hand path and the pivot path through active muscle action...combine the two programs and run at the same time...

Did mike austin simultaneously move his pivot and hands so that centrifugal force throwout is delayed until late release...?

Who knows...?? but worth tinkering with... going to get a speed gun measurer... whichver method gives esiest speed is the winner... alignments can be sorted later

 

[JeffM]

puttmad

Feel free to expand on the topic of the "twist and throw" maneuver. I would be interested in learning in how it can add to swing power generated by the central torque generator in the double pendulum swing action model. I can well imagine an active right forearm action supplementing the centrifugal forces set into play by the central torque generator - if the ACTIVE right forearm release can be optimally timed so that it coordinates with the centrifugal forces already operant. In fact, that's my personal idea of a "hitter" versus a "swinger". I personally imagine a "swinger" being a golfer who swings via the double pendulum swing action model, while a "hitter" is a person who adds additional swing power through a right forearm "twist and throw" maneuver.

Golfbulldog

I can only judge Tang by what he writes. The comparison he made was plain silly.

He may well add additional swing power by "arm swinging from the top" but I would need proof that the "arm power" is replacing his "body-power" rather than supplementing his "body power". I strongly suspect that "correct" lower body movements are so ingrained in his golf swing that he does it unconsciously. That allows him to consciously think of swinging his arms from the top. However, try that "arm swinging from the top" technique with a beginner golfer who has considerable lower body inertia, and consider the results.

Jeff.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

He may well add additional swing power by "arm swinging from the top" but I would need prove that the "arm power" is replacing his "body-power" rather than supplementing his "body power". I strongly suspect that "correct" lower body movements are so ingrained in his golf swing that he does it unconsciously. That allows him to consciously think of swinging his arms from the top. However, try that "arm swinging from the top" technique with a beginner golfer who has considerable lower body inertia, and consider the results.

Jeff.

Bingo!

 

[puttmad]

....

puttmad

Feel free to expand on the topic of the "twist and throw" maneuver. I would be interested in learning in how it can add to swing power generated by the central torque generator in the double pendulum swing action model. I can well imagine an active right forearm action supplementing the centrifugal forces set into play by the central torque generator - if the ACTIVE right forearm release can be optimally timed so that it coordinates with the centrifugal forces already operant. In fact, that's my personal idea of a "hitter" versus a "swinger". I personally imagine a "swinger" being a golfer who swings via the double pendulum swing action model, while a "hitter" is a person who adds additional swing power through a right forearm "twist and throw" maneuver.

Jeff,

Read pages 6 & 7 of the Weight Shift thread. I covered it ad nauseum there..

But rather than just trying to figure or prove/disprove it by reading about it, why don't you simply give it a try and base your conclusions on what you find?

Actions speak louder than words..

 

[bts]

Let's test it.

.......................
“Research has shown that the body only contributes 10% of power to the golf swing, whereas the speed of the hands and their actions contribute 90% of power.”

I would love if people making such bold statements would at least give a reference(s) to the research they deftly invoke as support for their ideas. .........

Artifically inactivate 5% of the muscle in the pivot or the hands and check the impact to the swing should test that statement.

It almost says like "no action was contributed from the players in tag-of-war". They hardly move, don't they?

 

[bts]

His intent?

..........................

Did mike austin simultaneously move his pivot and hands so that centrifugal force throwout is delayed until late release...?

Who knows...?? ..................

Nobody, except him.

I can't help to think that he managed to "let the club to be released much farther beyond impact", based on that "axis over-tilt" at impact and follow through.

 

[puttmad]

....

Nobody, except him.

I can't help to think that he managed to "let the club to be released much farther beyond impact", based on that "axis over-tilt" at impact and follow through.

bts,

Mike controlled the speed of the pivot to keep his hands leading the club therefore retaining the lag angle..

He didn't adjust the hands to the pivot, he adjusted the pivot to the speed of the hands...

 

[iseekabetterswing]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xlf85HfGho