Hands led Transition - Dunigan

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JoeShmoe

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Hi guys. New here but great forum

Im interested to know about your views on transitioning with the hands

http://www.golfbetterproductions.com/article-gi-summer-201.asp

Having learnt the game using John Dunigans methods of pulling the hands back down to plane from the top whilst leaving the shoulders and hips fully turned, I have been experimenting with hips and lower body transitions but I just can never make them work for long

I find slightly more power in the hips led tranistion but way more timing and balance is needed as I tend to lunge at the ball or spin my right shoulder out and block

So does anyone here use or advocate Dunigans methods or is it generally regarded that this approach is incorrect. It works for me and i play off 10 but id like to be longer/straighter this year and wonder if this method has a 'ceiling' in terms of say clubhead lag and wrists angles?

TIA
 
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hue

New
Dunigan teaches a double shift swing where you drop onto the elbow plane in the downstroke. That is OK if you do it naturally see mikestloc,s swing in the video section. Single shift where you take a direct line from the top to the ball is more simple ( see Tom Bartlett's swing in video section ) and is something you should do if you do it naturally. Brian is helping a good friend of mine that plays off +3 he was taught to double shift but Brian had a hunch that that was not "his" natural move which he felt was single shift. My friend took to single shift like a duck to water and his ball striking is much better.Brian's hunch was right. This is an individual thing where you could do with the help of an experienced teacher like Brian rather than going to a one size fits all type of teacher like Dunigan. The Dunigan double shift swing "might" be right for you but it also may not suit you. In TGM there are options.
 
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hue

New
Joe I keep away from the one plane two plane terminology. I don't need any new diseases . TGM is complete I use TGM to categorise motions not half baked theories.
 
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JoeShmoe

New
Thanks Hue

Let me give you my main problem then and see if you can help me. I'll break down my swing into components

1. Backswing. I feel like my left palm pushes the club back such that my left hand 'rolls' on top of my right hand, bending back my right wrist to the top. Very flat left wrist at the top

2. Transtion. I feel like I pull the club down with my hands, keeping shoulders as fully turned as possible. Try and feel nothing in my wrists at this point

3. When my hands are at waist level and the clubhead is still as vertical as I can get it I think about rolling my right hand over my left as my shoulders open up

Now this has been working great for me for a while but every now and then I start blocking everything right. I then get fliipy with my hands and end up with thinned pulls. Just horrible.Im guessing this a timing thing where im too late on the roll of my right hand through impact? Once Ive got this though I cant shift it. I even had to quit mid round last month

Any ideas on what could be the cause/effect/cure? This is killing me at the moment yet I believe my top of swing position gives me the right platform for a square clubface at impact (i.e. toe is not pointing straight down)

Im from Edinburgh by the way .. see youre a Brit :)
 
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hue

New
Backswing sounds good . Does the downswing feel natural to you ? I have a hunch you are not a natural double shifter.
 
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JoeShmoe

New
No, actually the lower body led transition seemed more natural but I just cant time it or sequence it right. I *think* my body outraces my arms hence the block but I couldnt be sure. How would someone transition into a single shift ( as opposed to the pull down motion of a double shift?)
 
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hue

New
quote:Originally posted by JoeShmoe

No, actually the lower body led transition seemed more natural but I just cant time it or sequence it right. I *think* my body outraces my arms hence the block but I couldnt be sure. How would someone transition into a single shift ( as opposed to the pull down motion of a double shift?)
Click to expand...
By going in a straight line from the top to the ball without the drop onto the elbow plane. The ideal would be to get your hands at the top on the turned shoulder plane then get them and the trail shoulder moving in a straight down plane line to the ball. No drop much more simple.A small lateral hip bump provides the free lane for the right shoulder to move downplane.
 
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EdZ

New
quote:Originally posted by JoeShmoe

Thanks Hue

Let me give you my main problem then and see if you can help me. I'll break down my swing into components

1. Backswing. I feel like my left palm pushes the club back such that my left hand 'rolls' on top of my right hand, bending back my right wrist to the top. Very flat left wrist at the top

2. Transtion. I feel like I pull the club down with my hands, keeping shoulders as fully turned as possible. Try and feel nothing in my wrists at this point

3. When my hands are at waist level and the clubhead is still as vertical as I can get it I think about rolling my right hand over my left as my shoulders open up

Now this has been working great for me for a while but every now and then I start blocking everything right. I then get fliipy with my hands and end up with thinned pulls. Just horrible.Im guessing this a timing thing where im too late on the roll of my right hand through impact? Once Ive got this though I cant shift it. I even had to quit mid round last month

Any ideas on what could be the cause/effect/cure? This is killing me at the moment yet I believe my top of swing position gives me the right platform for a square clubface at impact (i.e. toe is not pointing straight down)

Im from Edinburgh by the way .. see youre a Brit :)
Click to expand...


A very useful drill to help with sequence that Lynn showed me:

put a dowel through your two front belt loops.

This prevents too much lower body, and provides more of the feel of what you are describing (which is what Tomasello descibed).

Check ball position and grip pressure when blocks come in. You are sounding like a 'snap' release, which you must ALLOW to happen.
 
golfwolf

golfwolf

New
quote:Originally posted by EdZ




A very useful drill to help with sequence that Lynn showed me:

put a dowel through your two front belt loops.

This prevents too much lower body, and provides more of the feel of what you are describing (which is what Tomasello descibed).

Check ball position and grip pressure when blocks come in. You are sounding like a 'snap' release, which you must ALLOW to happen.
Click to expand...


EdZ - Can you elaborate more on the dowel drill? Is the purpose of the dowel to see if your hips shift laterall, cross line, etc.. Is there another purpose?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
 
tongzilla

tongzilla

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This is the "secret".

You think about starting the Downstroke with your Hands. Your mind is in your Hands.

But the Hands just won't start down unless there's Lag Pressure. Your Hands are Educated. They are saying, "I don't want come down unless I feel Lag Pressure!"

And the only way the Hands can accept this Lag Pressure is when the lower body initiates the Downstroke.

That's how you maintain Clubhead Lag Pressure Point relationship with the Plane Line as opposed to the Body.

That's what the Hand Controlled Pivot is about.
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
quote:Originally posted by hue

quote:Originally posted by JoeShmoe

No, actually the lower body led transition seemed more natural but I just cant time it or sequence it right. I *think* my body outraces my arms hence the block but I couldnt be sure. How would someone transition into a single shift ( as opposed to the pull down motion of a double shift?)
Click to expand...
By going in a straight line from the top to the ball without the drop onto the elbow plane. The ideal would be to get your hands at the top on the turned shoulder plane then get them and the trail shoulder moving in a straight down plane line to the ball. No drop much more simple.A small lateral hip bump provides the free lane for the right shoulder to move downplane.
Click to expand...

Hue a zero shift or single shift is of course simpler, but if you naturally double shift, imo you shouldn't be "fighting it." Just like your friend, do what's natural. However have to do the 3 imperatives
 
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powerfade9

New
Ok, you guys are way over my head here....call me a newbie. I am a 10 HC and have recently adopted some of Dunigans concepts in my system. I don't concentrate on the hands at all, but work on a feeling of the arms dropping via gravity with a slight movement of the butt of the club away from the target coupled with a slight lateral shift towards the target line, not the target. I don't subscribe to his flattening method and generally hit the ball dead straight with a strong hip rotation at the bittom. I also work on steepening the right shoulder through impact, and holding the turn at the top until I feel the arms start to fall. I might work on the active pushing away from the target in a drill only. I do believe his article and book have a lot to offer a 2 plane golfer and I have added 5 to 7 MPH to my 5 irin with less effort. My understanding of my swing and flaws has improved with his teaching. My lag has improved. I used to start my downswing with a pretty violent jerk of the hips and would snatch the arms down hence the OOT move. Now I wait for the "fall" and my transition has greatly improved. One of the "secrets" to the golf swing is no doubt that the first move down with the club is away from the target. And he is right that the arms have to do something here. It cannot be done via the body alone.
 
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powerfade9

New
Joe, I read your original post again so let me take a crack at the specifics of your question. I have conversed with John about some of this. In his method he assume some good lower body transition is already present. In my case it was really present to a fault. I would start my downswing about 1/2 way through my backswing and would easily peg out any load meter at the top. I think this has to be learned along the way some how prior to starting his pushing method. The key will always be a proper coil around the right hip based on a good x factor syle shoulder turn with the "iron" triangle in good form. Be sure to maintain good balance and knee flex here. Its the key to the Sam Snead squat which his method will easily produce if you set up properly. This question really calls into question the whole tail wags the dog vs dog wags the tail debate. I now have concluded that both concepts are synergistic at the top in the transition especially. At the bottom for me its definitely the body as it is with the takeaway. But at least for me at this time, I am amazed how much I have to throttle back the body impulses at the top and let the arms do their work. I had a strong hit impulse from the top. Now I realize that anything can be overdone and I definitely would not want to concentrate on the hands here in any case. Thats the worst swing thought one can have IN ANY portion of the golf swing in my opinion. They are unruly to say the least. For me its the slow acceleration of the shift/turm of the hips with the fall of the arms at the top....but I must feel the fall first coupled with a very slight lateral move to start the spine tilt away from the target which initiates the whole transition.(Actually the transition starts with the feet and moves up but this is natural if you make a correct backswing pivot)As the hands/butt of club is moved away from the target by the big muscle lower body moves, the light arms start their descent via gravity only and they will drop in the slot. From below shoulder height, the big muscle acceleration starts to take over. I release more with my body then my hands and rely on a strong rotation at the bottom via the body. I really try to delay the rotation as much as possible to give the arms a chance to accelerate naturally. It amazing how much more club head speed I can generate when I do this. The key is to keep the lower body from taking over too much too early. Do not rely on the hands to orchestrate this at the top. Think arms falling combined with smooth acceleration of the shift turn. And forget the flattening of the club via hands/arms except on a drill basis. Use the lateral hip movement and steeper shoulder plane on the downswing to drop the club below backswing plane. His compound move is too complicated and takes out the big muscles too much in my opinion. I am working on hand rotation at the bottom to introduce a small draw in my swing but I prefer a dead straight to slight fade for my swing. Ralph Mann in Swing Like A Pro has some good work in this area as well. But I have to be honest here...I do not belive you can build a correct and powerful downswing around the pushing away of the club at the top. There is more to it than that. But consider this as well. If you allow your arms to drop properly close to the body, it will be NATURAL for your hips to quickly unwind at the bottom to GET OUT of THE way for the correct attack angle. If you cast at the top or spin too early, then forget it. One last thing, I like his teaching on posture and weight distribution but belive that he teaches too much lean over the ball at address. I like to stand tall at 6'3" and like Haneys 20 deg method here. This allows my gravity /karate chop method to work. I will allow Hardy's one plane crew to work up the sweat here. I am not expending energy until the bottom where it counts. Besides, my back is in good shape. I hear Jacobsen has had all kinds of back issues since he hooked up with JH. HTH
 
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MizunoJoe

New
It's OK to drop the hands from the top, as long as it's done with a tilt, and not independently of the shoulders, which is #4 throwaway. As soon as you drop your hands independently, the power is compromised and there is nothing you can do to recover it.
 
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EdZ

New
quote:Originally posted by golfwolf

quote:Originally posted by EdZ




A very useful drill to help with sequence that Lynn showed me:

put a dowel through your two front belt loops.

This prevents too much lower body, and provides more of the feel of what you are describing (which is what Tomasello descibed).

Check ball position and grip pressure when blocks come in. You are sounding like a 'snap' release, which you must ALLOW to happen.
Click to expand...


EdZ - Can you elaborate more on the dowel drill? Is the purpose of the dowel to see if your hips shift laterall, cross line, etc.. Is there another purpose?

Thanks.
Click to expand...


It helps synchronize the hands to body relationship from hip to hip, preventing the body from getting too far ahead (getting "stuck" as Tiger calls it).
Click to expand...
 
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