High-Speed Impact Video (with Manzella response)

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I think this could be a very interesting discussion - so here's hoping it stays clean, and can stay up.

I have 2 initial thoughts.

One, is that if you're talking about path and rotation in an interval of only 0.0005s, then you need to be careful about terminology such as "pretty square" or "pretty straight". Lots of things could look pretty square and pretty straight if you narrow the interval enough - so there's no point in narrowing the time interval if you can't measure paths and angles with a correspondingly high degree (no pun intended) of accuracy. From memory, Jorgenson projected stroboscopic photos onto the wall in order to up the scale of accuracy.

Two, I'm willing to accept that you could have a toe hit and no clubface rotation. In principle, I suppose someone could demonstrate a rate of clubface rotation prior to impact, estimate the forces responsible for that rotation, and show that a stationary golf ball being hit off the toe at 100+ mph would apply a realistic opposite torque to cancel any clubface rotation through impact. But I'd still think that the discussion has to be in terms of opposing and cancelling forces and inertias - which seems to me different from classifying releases into "stable" and "unstable" types.

Having said that, it's great to see someone (a) challenge conventional wisdom; and (b) put their money where their mouth is - you could buy multiple TM for the cost of one of those cameras.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Birly, you think they bought one of those???

Kind of square, relatively straight, sort of a toe hit, ball went almost straight......geez.
 
But not the only one, right?

For sure, not the only one, but it is a fundamental.

IMHO, TM's failure to accommodate the GE and any other factors such as closure rates, shaft torques and probably a few other forces which play a part in the whole impact scenario makes it an interim solution at best and somewhat misleading at worst.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/52087188" width="700" height="394" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
TM's failure to accommodate the GE and any other factors such as closure rates, shaft torques and probably a few other forces which play a part in the whole impact scenario makes it an interim solution at best and somewhat misleading at worst.

Totally ignorant comment.

TrackMan takes into account EVERYTHING that happens in the WHOLE impact interval.

The ball data is the SUM of the WHOLE interval!!!

Geezz....
 
Since when does it measure/quantify the effect of GE on the resulting ball flight?

I believe your question should be about the calculations of face angle/path as a result of gear effect as opposed to gear effect and ballflight. Trackman has the effect of impact collisions built into its calculation. Ballflight is measured so therefore, the ball doesn't care about gear effect but the club face/path calculations will care. (Maybe there is a calculation part of ballflight but I doubt it since nobody objects to the ballflight readings). Of course, those who don't like the fact that Trackman makes a calculation have no other information to present but their own guess as to what happened at impact.

The worst is someone who takes a Trackman out of the box, sees the ball go left with an open face/path relationship and then tries to discredit Trackman because he can't understand that Trackman calculated gear effect into the face/path readings. Or, their students produce horrible numbers on Trackman (face/path divergence of >5) even though they're drive/holding all day long. I personally don't care how one person swings as long as their numbers are consistent. However, it's much easier to get less dispersion in face/path numbers if you aren't hitting down on the ball with a steep angle of attack like most teachers now teach.

Could Trackman be off? I'm sure it might be off. How much? Not enough for me to quit using it or believing. It changed my game for the better. How many shots have I knocked off per round? At least 3-4 and I now consistently break par. I never could have had that much improvement but/for Trackman, the D plane and Bman. Will there be a better machine than Trackman? I hope so. In fact, I would love Trackman to invent a club that measures everything instead of a calculation. Of course, people would still question.
 
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"Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?" -- H. M. Warner (1881-1958), founder of Warner Brothers, in 1927

The quote above reminds me about people trying to discredit Trackman. I'm sure there were plenty of silent movie makers (ex. those using video only) who went after movie makers who started using sound (ex. Trackman users). Golf is 3D, not 2D.
 
OK, I hear you.

So was this marking with the sharpie not necessary? Were the software updates in any way related to GE? Just askin.

TrackMan customer David Howell had his system updated with TrackMan Performance Studio during the BMW
Championship at Wentworth. While TrackMan inventor Fredrik Tuxen introduced David to the ground breaking TPS
software, he also opened David’s eyes to the importence of center impact… in particular with the driver.

Figure 1. One of the swings from TrackMan Performance Studio
that initiated the discussion is shown. The club path is slightly
in-to-out (0.5 deg.) with a 1.8 deg. closed face angle relative to
the path. Normally this would produce a small draw, but instead
a slight fade resulted. The explanation lies in the fact that the
ball, as can barely be seen on video is impacted a little towards
the heel, resulting in a gear effect tilting the spin axis towards a
fade shot – in this case actually more than compensating for the
closed Face-to-Path. After the impact position on the club face
was brought up during the testing, David marked every single
ball with a sharpie to verify the impact position.
Figure 2. Shows a mirrored situation of figure 1. This shot reveals
a 1.4 deg. open Face-to-Path, but because of the slight toe
impact (pay attention to the head position at impact relative to
the aiming stick which remained fixed relative to the ball position
throughout the testing), the horizontal gear effect overrides the
open face angle creating a slight draw.
The impact position on the club face is not only important because
of its influence on the spin axis through the gear effect,
but is also important when studying the Face-to-Path data. Due
to the bulge of the driver, if the ball is impacted ½ inch (12.7
mm) towards the heel, the face angle will at this point on the
club face be 2 deg. closed relative to the center of the club face.
Likewise, if the ball is impacted ½ inch towards the toe, the face
angle at this point will be 2 deg. open relative to the center of the
club face. This rule-of-thumb actually works for all drivers on the
market.
The above raises an important question when analyzing the TrackMan club data.
Is a 2 deg. closed Face-to-Path due to a center hit with a truly closed face, or is it a square club delivery, but heel impact?
When David continued hitting about 30 drives each being checked for impact position and club delivery data, the answer in his case
was slowly revealed. David’s club path was very consistent within +/-1 deg., whereas the Face-to-Path had twice as much variation.
The very interesting thing was that the variation of the Face-to-Path closely followed the impact position on the club face – meaning
that whenever a closed Face-to-Path number occurred, the impact on the club was slightly towards the heel and vice versa for open
Face-to-Path numbers. Or as David summarized his learnings “the Face-to-Path variation I am getting for my driver has much more
to do with impact position on the club face rather than the way I swing the club”.

 
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