hitter and swinger

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anakin

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I had been seeing these word again and again.... just wondering whether someone could give me a precise definition and characteristic?

Hitter
Do they use drive load only?
Can they use float load?
Can they use drag load?
Do they have a lot of back swing?
Do they have to work on the release?

Swinger
Can they use drive load?
Can they push the right elbow out during impact?
Do they only rely on automatic release?
 
6

6bee1dee

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quote:Originally posted by anakin

I had been seeing these word again and again.... just wondering whether someone could give me a precise definition and characteristic?

Hitter
Do they use drive load only?
Can they use float load?
Can they use drag load?
Do they have a lot of back swing?
Do they have to work on the release?

Swinger
Can they use drive load?
Can they push the right elbow out during impact?
Do they only rely on automatic release?
Click to expand...

Homer said that he found nothing you couldn't put in a stroke that didn't do SOMETHING.

Rube Goldberg built some funky machines, too, but as a guideline:

Hitters use DRIVE Loading with shorter backswings because the pivot is used as a backboard- to push off of. The release is built in to the automatic Angled Hinge Motion meaning the arms and body will follow the hands into follow through.

Swingers need to trust the laws of nature, physics and God as they give it all up to Centrifugal Force with its built in Horizontal Hinge action. Pure Drag loading. If the handle is aimed down the line, the club ends need to switch somewhere in the stroke- that's trust.

In less then a full swing, drive loading with a more active right arm can work, say a small pitch or punch shot, but since the club ends need to switch in a Swing Stroke, you are more then likely moving into the Hitter's motion and you should then accept and believe in the beauty of the cross line approach of the club shaft and call it Hitting instead of mismatching components. (That's a long sentence)
 
A

anakin

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Thanks ---- Very good answers, now more questions

Hitting - does it mean that they got to understanding the wrist action rather then letting the pivot to load and release the power package? Concious release action.... Flat left wrist and extening the right elbow on impact. And is more like a hand driven momentum?

And according to what 6bee1dee said, hitting can only apply to miniture shots, such as pitch and a punch?
 
rwh

rwh

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quote:Originally posted by anakin

Thanks ---- Very good answers, now more questions

Hitting - does it mean that they got to understanding the wrist action rather then letting the pivot to load and release the power package? Concious release action.... Flat left wrist and extening the right elbow on impact. And is more like a hand driven momentum?

And according to what 6bee1dee said, hitting can only apply to miniture shots, such as pitch and a punch?
Click to expand...

The main difference is that a Swinger simply allows Centrifugal Force to release the club while the Hitter consciously releases the club by uncocking the right elbow through the muscle power of the right triceps.

No, 6bee1dee was not saying that Hitting only applies to short shots. An example of a Hitter on tour is Craig Stadler and he hits it far enough.
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Swinging: You're pretty much letting your pivot do all of the work and letting centrifugal force square up the face for you. However it isn't a "pivot controlled hand" stroke because you still have your minds in your hands. You know that you have have your hands ahead, with a flat left and a bent right. Brian explains this with his "pivot powered hand control" designation. Also, in swinging, your hand TURNS to the plane, and cocks up the plane. Then it un-cocks DOWN the plane, rolls BACK to the plane (with a slightly open face at impact), releases to square, the ball leaves the face, then the left arm ROLLS back to the plane and re-cocks up the plane. That's swinging in a nutshell. The big difference is you UN-COCK THEN ROLL...it is a SEQUENCE. No roll then un-cock if you're a swinger. That's bad news.

Hitting: You are trying to not let the club/hand turn to the plane. You are trying to take it away with the face looking at the ball. However because your body is turning, somewhere near the end your arm is going to turn to the plane. However the "feel" is that your pp#3 sweet spot pressure point is still BEHIND THE SHAFT. Not "under it" like a swing would feel. Now a hitter SIMULTANEOUSLY un-cocks AND rolls into the ball and begins to CONSCIOUSLY straighten that right arm into the ball, but you MUST KEEP A BENT RIGHT WRIST. Thats hitting in a nutshell.

----

Now before i get flamed, i know i left a lot out...but this is the basic concept. If you'd like to see this more in a video. Check out Brians video short on "Hitting vs. Swinging." He demonstrates everything i just said.

Also, this may help. Imagine you are going to karate chop someone in the throat. Now instead of doing that to someone in the throat, you are that to the inside corner of the ball. That is the "feel" for swinging. You are pulling with that left side and karate chopping that ball. In Hitting, imagine you are going to punch someone dead straight in the chest with the bottom part of your palm. To do that with any power you'd need to have your hand bent back towards your forearm so it is "braced" for that punch. Now instead of doing that to someone in the chest, you are going to do it to the GROUND!

Hope that helps...
 
A

anakin

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Jim, thanks well explain....

Now...

Swinger pivot power hand, where we constantly monitoring our pivot. As long as having a free wrist... everything are automatic...

Hitter...the question mark now is...The brian is in our pivot, as long as we know that we are maintaing the pivot angle. The right wrist and elbow is doing the job, and as long as we have a free pivot.

Could we see whether people out there is a swinger or a hitter but looking at the swing? If that is the case a hitter would have a faster tempo?
 
6

6bee1dee

New
quote:Originally posted by anakin

Jim, thanks well explain....

Now...

Swinger pivot power hand, where we constantly monitoring our pivot. As long as having a free wrist... everything are automatic...

Hitter...the question mark now is...The brian is in our pivot, as long as we know that we are maintaing the pivot angle. The right wrist and elbow is doing the job, and as long as we have a free pivot.

Could we see whether people out there is a swinger or a hitter but looking at the swing? If that is the case a hitter would have a faster tempo?
Click to expand...


Sorry if I confused you and others.

NO- you can Hit with any and all clubs.


The pivot is slightly different with a Hitter in that the right shoulder becomes a "backboard" to drive the right arm out from.

A Hitter will have a slightly shorter backswing, no plane shift to impact, and perhaps a shorter follow through...


BUT.... it does NOT look different from any other golf swing.

The difference is in the application of the power not in the alignments of the circle. Different physics, same geometry.

To the causel observer, it will look the same.
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

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Really good post Jim. I'm copying that to a word document I think.

Love the way you explained the startup swivel for swinging. That's a hard thing to explain.

The only other thing in the takeaway you really have to watch for on top of that is that you don't over-roll your hands open and also don't go too much to the right of your sternum. Two things that seem to commonly go wrong with swinging.
 
bts

bts

New
Hitting: push against clubhead "LAG" with active body parts.

Swinging: pull the club against pivot "LAG".
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
How to learn the 1/4 for swinging:

-put your left hand up in front of you like you were going to smack someone right in the face with your palm.
-now turn your palm to the ground

----

Thats it, that's turning your hand to the plane. Anymore than that in the backswing and you've over-rolled it open.
 
A

anakin

New
Love all the answers

Unlike the "pivot power hands control" we would have to sit and tilt during transition. So for hitter, do we have to sit and tilt at transition, since hitter is using the backboard to drive the right arm out? What is the meaning of "backboard", does it mean that the pivot tilt back to countering the force of the right elbow push?
If hitter is using mucsle to drive for power, so the wrist and arm might not be free and soft then, since Jum was saying that we have to maintain the bent right wrist and elbow trust? (No more lazy hands?)

What is the meaning of
no plane shift to impact
startup swivel for swinging - (rotating the right arm?)
The Hitters concentrates on Hand Motions and swinger concentrates on wrist motion.
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
There is tilt to the golfer's right or face on view the left in every folf stroke, hitting or swinging. However you can add too much tilt and as Lynn says in the one clip, "perverted idea of axis tilt."

You are tilted to the right for 2 reasons:

1) your right hand is lower than the left hand on the club. Tilts you to the right
2) once you bump your hips, it tilts you to the right again. Assuming you haven't moved your head.
 
6

6bee1dee

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quote:Originally posted by jim_0068

There is tilt to the golfer's right or face on view the left in every folf stroke, hitting or swinging. However you can add too much tilt and as Lynn says in the one clip, "perverted idea of axis tilt."

You are tilted to the right for 2 reasons:

1) your right hand is lower than the left hand on the club. Tilts you to the right
2) once you bump your hips, it tilts you to the right again. Assuming you haven't moved your head.
Click to expand...

Yoda eliminated the “K frame”at address and builds “A frames.” This has taken a lot of the tilt (and sway) out of the stroke. When I said that there is no tilt in the Hit stroke it was an answer to anikan’s question that seem to imply adding a sit and tilt to the stroke when there is none added. The Hula Hula action of the hip bump action (7-14) should not add addition tilt to the right. The Hula Hula action as described by Kelley in 7-14 is an independent action of the lower body and shoulders. A hip bump with a drop in the right shoulder is a "perverted idea of axis tilt."

Ideally a Hitter would take the club away using the Right Forearm TakeAway and trace the same plane into impact. I hope you watched the clips, Anikan. It shows, and this was the other thing in TGM for me take took some time to own, the right shoulder is the backboard that the right arm drives off of. This is why Angled hinging works best.

I also think Hitters and Swingers think Hands. The wrist action a swinger gets is the sequential action of accumulators 2 and 3. A Hitter dumps both of them at the same time. Both have educated hands and wrist action.
 
D

DDL

New
quote:The Hula Hula action of the hip bump action (7-14) should not add addition tilt to the right. The Hula Hula action as described by Kelley in 7-14 is an independent action of the lower body and shoulders. A hip bump with a drop in the right shoulder is a "perverted idea of axis tilt."
Click to expand...

I'm a pervert. I mistakenly equate axis tilt and right shoulder downplane with right shoulder 'drop'. Homer says to keep the right shoulder back and down(plane). IMplies that the right shoulder stays where it is during the hip slide.
 
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