Hitting vs. Swinging

[bcoak]

Happy 4th.

Never really understood the difference between hitting and swinging. Always seems to get bogged down in a technical discussion. I would appreciate it if, in layman's terms (or BM speak), someone would explain the differences between these two and why you should consider one over the other.

 

[Jared Willerson]

swing a rope (swinging) or an axe (hitting)

Swinging is more letting centrifugal force rule the swing, while hitting is active participation of the right shoulder and elbow. That is what I understand anyway, I don't think total hitting is possible.

 

[Brian Manzella]

The Worst Thing Ever.

I have been teaching golf for 25 years now, and I have heard—and taught—literally thousands of pictures, thoughts and feels on the golf swing.

At the end of the day, that's all they are—ideas—something to tell your body to do, based on a sensation, a look, or some words.

Period.

I don't care if it is scientifically correct or not. Or whether it is right or wrong.
They are all just ideas presented to the student as pictures, words or feels.

Lots of teachers teach PURE JUNK, as far as whether or not it is really "correct" or provable or whatever, and they get RESULTS anyway.

If you tell the student to throw it away—and more teachers than you think do just that—and it works, then that's just how the cookie crunbles.

I like ideas that have a basis in reality, something I really WANT the student to do, something that the great players do and did, and somthing that can be proven in a lab.

But...whatvever works...

Anyhoo, of all the ideas I have EVER used, or seen used, the concept of Hitting or Swinging, may be the worse ever.

Really?

Blasphemy?

Whether or not the two things actually exist as toally separate entities—which I'd bet on full swings is impossible—doesn't matter. What I am talking about is KNOWING that there is SUPPOSED TO BE two separate ways to hit a ball, is a very damaging IDEA as far as I have seen.

On my lesson tee, I TOTALLY ignore the terms, mainly because the RESULTS of someone trying to be a hitter is something that just makes me want to vomit.

I didn't say MOVING THE CLUB in any particular way offends me if "the club works like a club." I am talking about the idea of it.

There are golfers who will rush to defend the IDEA of hitting, as in "I am playing the best golf of my life as an out-and-out hitter." All I can say is I have seen some of these guys, and if it works for them, great. But I NEVER saw one I couldn't improve a BUNCH in about an hour if they'd listen to me.

If the IDEA of Hitting works for you, or the IDEA of swinging a certain way, with a certain kind of release—sequenced—works for you, make my day.

But those IDEAS were TOTAL and COMPLETE FAILURES when put up against WHAT and HOW I teach. I tested them, and it was no contest.

Hitting is suposed to be pushing and Swinging pulling, but I use PUSHING, PULLING, DROPPING, SHAKING, and all sorts of differnet releases and plane shifts and delivery paths, like dabs of paint on my pallete.

Along with the ABSOLUTE BEST results I have ever seen live. No contest.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

As an example:

When playing a round of golf with Zarro last weekend, he told me he was struggling with the idea of not using his arms in his swing. He's a big strong guy and it's his personality.

So we worked on adding a little right arm participation and to be honest, didn't look like any "supposed hitter" i've seen or heard about on some websites.

He was doing EVERYTHING i wanted him to do in swing. By telling him to use some right arm, all of sudden his pivot became better and he was swinging more left instead of right and the ball was going straighter.

I really don't care what you feel or think, as long as you looking how i think you need to look through the ball to hit great golf shots.

hell i've told 1 student he has to feel like he's slicing the ball to make him hit it better and i even had to tell another one to feel like he threw it away because he was trying to hold his accumulator angle too long and it was causing an extremely arched wrist and push shots.

Whatever works i say.

 

[Jared Willerson]

The greatest golfers all figured out "whatever works" for them. That is the way it has always been and forever will be.

Good information lessens the time to figure it out, especially with qualified instructor like Manzella.

 

[Leek]

As an example:

When playing a round of golf with Zarro last weekend, he told me he was struggling with the idea of not using his arms in his swing. He's a big strong guy and it's his personality.

So we worked on adding a little right arm participation and to be honest, didn't look like any "supposed hitter" i've seen or heard about on some websites.

He was doing EVERYTHING i wanted him to do in swing. By telling him to use some right arm, all of sudden his pivot became better and he was swinging more left instead of right and the ball was going straighter.

I really don't care what you feel or think, as long as you looking how i think you need to look through the ball to hit great golf shots.

hell i've told 1 student he has to feel like he's slicing the ball to make him hit it better and i even had to tell another one to feel like he threw it away because he was trying to hold his accumulator angle too long and it was causing an extremely arched wrist and push shots.

Whatever works i say.

Great post Jim. I think the problem for us as students is that we can't see what we are doing, and our feel isn't always so accurate.

 

[birdie_man]

Good last few posts. Thx guys.

The Hitting/Swinging thing has been in the back of my mind for a while. I've said I thought it's impossible to do only Hitting...............in the end tho as u say Brian......ur right......it really doesn't matter too much. (if you are talking about teaching and getting results)

 

[puttmad]

If you want to make a definition between the two, you may get clarification by watching the long drive contestants....these guys and gals show a definite tendency to jack up their swings with a hitting action....hence the ungainly finish positions they seem to achieve...

 

[bcoak]

I swing the same way every time (or at least try ). I am trying to improve my driving/fairways hit (and get rid of the off the world shot that happens 3x/rd and kills me) as well as hit more greens from 130 yds in. Was just fooling around with what I "thought" would be classified as a hitting motion to try and get a shot that I can get into the fw when I have to and to hit it closer on the shorter approaches. That's my primary intent on asking the question as I also believe the Hit v. swing stuff is confusing and tbh malarky.
So the gist of the question probaly would be better stated to ask can you change methods/swings for different shots ala the stinger.

 

[Spike]

Homer Kelley put down on paper in the written word the components of Hitting and Swinging as two distinct methods of moving the club to hit a ball. The differences are very clear.

The written word was designed for teachers to use their imaginations and intelligence to decipher and arrange these components to the students advantage.

I don't believe in his heart that he completed his study but he can rest in peace knowing he gave the world a dictionary that paves the way into the future.

Investigate, search, and look....dive in with all your heart and enjoy the journey. Right, Left or in between a ton of good golf can be played from just about anywhere. Do not do something that hurts you even if they say it is "for you". Look for fluid, flowing and easy on the body motions that the club is designed for and you might be able to reach your potential.

Hitting? Swinging? The In-between? Sure...why not? As long as the ball goes where you want it to go!

 

[hcw]

fwiw...

these are just my thoughts and i don't certainly want to get into a philosophical row as i am by no means an expert...for the record, i agree with what brian said that it is an artificial difference and not to be worried or argued about, just do whatever works best for you to move the club (or to get your student to move the club)...having said that, i also thought a lot about this awhile back and came to the conclusion that in swinging vs. hitting what Mr. Kelly was talking about (but imho not describing very well) was how the clubshaft/clubhead moved relative to the plane...here is what i mean:

first, i think it is helpful to look at the motion at shoulder level, ie a horizontal instead of an inclined plane…grab a club and set up…then bring the club up as if the ball were now at shoulder level and make your stroke…if you "swing", at some point your trail hand should rotate to be palm skyward with the clubshaft and clubhead still roughly parallel to the plane of the lead shoulder…the butt end will be the closest part of the club to the ball and is the part you pull back "down-on-plane" until release when the palm rotates back from skyward (parallel to the plane) to targetward (roughly perpendicular to the plane) and the clubface to the ball…if you "hit", you keep the trail palm facing the ball and rotate the clubshaft and clubhead (around PP#1) to be roughly perpendicular to the plane of the lead shoulder (unless you bend your lead wrist)...PP#1 is then what you push back "down-on-plane" until release rotates the clubshaft and clubhead back to parallel to the plane and to the ball...

...they can look a lot alike at the end of the backswing and the downswing is so fast that it is tough to tell, but i think the key is whether the trail elbow is perpendicular to the line of force you put on the club to start the downswing (so you pull or "swing") or the trail elbow is parallel/inline with the line of force you put on the club to start the downswing (so you push or "hit")...again, just my $0.02 and ymmv...

-hcw

 

[birdie_man]

So the gist of the question probaly would be better stated to ask can you change methods/swings for different shots ala the stinger.

I think u can get more forward lean on the shaft by adding some right arm in there. (i.e. "palm-punch the ground with your right hand heelpad")

Reverse is true for adding LESS right arm.....more of a "whirling" motion.....i.e. just a rotating torso with soft flailing arms.

Anyhoo......the general effect I think is:

A. when the grip end is pushed on (i.e. "shake the sugar off your arms at impact") it leans the grip end forward. (more forward shaft lean-> less loft at impact-> more of a leading edge divot)

B.when you feel like you don't push at all (i.e. "flail" as above....i.e. a pure-PULLING feel)......the club will want to just flail like a rock on a string........or like the PINGMAN swinging robot with a free wrist hinge. (less forward lean-> more loft at impact-> more mid-sole divot)

...

Also worth mentioning for A/B......you will tend to get more of an open face with A.....more closed with B.

Hope that helps ya.

 

[Leek]

I think u can get more forward lean on the shaft by adding some right arm in there. (i.e. "palm-punch the ground with your right hand heelpad")

Reverse is true for adding LESS right arm.....more of a "whirling" motion.....i.e. just a rotating torso with soft flailing arms.


Also worth mentioning for A/B......you will tend to get more of an open face with A.....more closed with B.

Hope that helps ya.

Interesting, the opposite seems true for me. More pulling seems to lead to an open clubface.