How "closeness" to the ball affects trajectory

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lookingtolearn

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This topic came up in the shanking thread, and I would like to hear other people's thoughts on the subject.

Jim K. stated that the closer you stand to the ball, the lower you will hit it, and the the farther away you are, the higher you will hit it. Now, I am not debating this, because I have tried it and it is true. However, I am missing the connection as to why it is true.

He said it is because the effect the setup has on axis tilt, but I don't see how. As Brian has said on here a few times, the more you bend over at address, the LESS tilt you need. So, if farther away from the ball = less tilt, and less tilt (with other things equal) = lower flight, why does farther away = higher flight?

Now, I should also add that Hank Haney (yeah I know, I know) has said that the closer you are to the ball, the higher your hands will be. And the higher your hands are, the more you decrease the effective loft of the club. I know that Hank isn't the most credible source, but he does seem to get a few things right here and there.

Any thoughts?
 
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pecky987

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lookingtolearn said:
This topic came up in the shanking thread, and I would like to hear other people's thoughts on the subject.

Jim K. stated that the closer you stand to the ball, the lower you will hit it, and the the farther away you are, the higher you will hit it. Now, I am not debating this, because I have tried it and it is true. However, I am missing the connection as to why it is true.

He said it is because the effect the setup has on axis tilt, but I don't see how. As Brian has said on here a few times, the more you bend over at address, the LESS tilt you need. So, if farther away from the ball = less tilt, and less tilt (with other things equal) = lower flight, why does farther away = higher flight?

Now, I should also add that Hank Haney (yeah I know, I know) has said that the closer you are to the ball, the higher your hands will be. And the higher your hands are, the more you decrease the effective loft of the club. I know that Hank isn't the most credible source, but he does seem to get a few things right here and there.

Any thoughts?
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the further from the ball you stand, the more tilt you need to get the right shoulder down-plane. therefore, more tilt usually = more height
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I think for the most part, people who stand closer to the ball to flight it lower are also gripping down on the club as well or leaning it forward. Nobody stood closer to it than Greg Norman and he used to bring rain with his shots.
 
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lookingtolearn

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pecky987 said:
the further from the ball you stand, the more tilt you need to get the right shoulder down-plane. therefore, more tilt usually = more height
Click to expand...

But isn't it the other way around? The farther away you stand, the more waist bend you usually have. More waist bend = LESS tilt needed to get the shoulder down plane. Therefore, less tilt = less height.

Right?
 
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lookingtolearn

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doubled said:
I think for the most part, people who stand closer to the ball to flight it lower are also gripping down on the club as well or leaning it forward. Nobody stood closer to it than Greg Norman and he used to bring rain with his shots.
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Didn't Norman flip it a little though?
 
detonum

detonum

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lookingtolearn said:
But isn't it the other way around? The farther away you stand, the more waist bend you usually have. More waist bend = LESS tilt needed to get the shoulder down plane. Therefore, less tilt = less height.

Right?
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This is right, so I don't understand why being closer to the ball would make the ball flight lower, all other things being equal.
 
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pecky987

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lookingtolearn said:
But isn't it the other way around? The farther away you stand, the more waist bend you usually have. More waist bend = LESS tilt needed to get the shoulder down plane. Therefore, less tilt = less height.

Right?
Click to expand...

well thats where your confusion comes from. the longer the club, the further you stand from the ball, the more UPRIGHT you stand
 
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lookingtolearn

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pecky987 said:
well thats where your confusion comes from. the longer the club, the further you stand from the ball, the more UPRIGHT you stand
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I'm talking about hitting the same shot with the same club, with the only thing changing is the distance you are from the ball. So if you set up to hit a normal 7 iron, and someone moved the ball away from you, you would have to bend over more to get to it.
 
shortgamer

shortgamer

New
Didn't tiger say in one of those golf channel clinics that he varies the distance from the ball according to the trajectory he wants? Not much I don't think but it is something he takes notice of.
 
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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Ok, all things being equal....standing closer or further away from the ball will create the exact same launch angle *IF* the axis tilt at IMPACT is the same and the FORWARD SHAFT LEAN is the same.

BUT

That usually doesn't happen. When you stand a bit further away you setup with more tilt and most people will create MORE TILT through impact and thus have less shaft lean "available" because they are too tilted to the right.

Now when you stand closer most players will setup with less tilt and won't CREATE AS MUCH TILT through the ball. This will allow the player to create MORE FORWARD SHAFT LEAN and help launch the ball LOWER.

Does that help?
 
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lookingtolearn

New
Thanks Jim

Jim Kobylinski said:
Ok, all things being equal....standing closer or further away from the ball will create the exact same launch angle *IF* the axis tilt at IMPACT is the same and the FORWARD SHAFT LEAN is the same.

BUT

That usually doesn't happen. When you stand a bit further away you setup with more tilt and most people will create MORE TILT through impact and thus have less shaft lean "available" because they are too tilted to the right.

Now when you stand closer most players will setup with less tilt and won't CREATE AS MUCH TILT through the ball. This will allow the player to create MORE FORWARD SHAFT LEAN and help launch the ball LOWER.

Does that help?
Click to expand...

Ok. I think I get it now. It basically "plays with" your natural tendencies as far as the tilt you set up with and the tilt you create.

So if you are to use these setup changes to make small adjustments to ball flight, you would want to be careful that you don't swing too far to the right with ball farther away and not too far to the left with the ball closer. Correct?
 
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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
lookingtolearn said:
Ok. I think I get it now. It basically "plays with" your natural tendencies as far as the tilt you set up with and the tilt you create.

So if you are to use these setup changes to make small adjustments to ball flight, you would want to be careful that you don't swing too far to the right with ball farther away and not too far to the left with the ball closer. Correct?
Click to expand...

Bingo!
 
vjcapron

vjcapron

New
The reason for lower shots is simple - angle of attack.

When you stand closer to the ball, you automatically have a steeper approach down on the ball. The ball is trapped against the turf, divots are deeper, and the ball flight is lower. You cannot physically take a shallow approach to the ball because your body is in the way.

Since your body is in the way, you have to take a steeper approach into the ball, and if you want to A.) take good ball-turf contact and B.) start the ball on the target line, most golfers will instinctively play the ball further back in their stance which delofts the club and you will hit the ball low and solid, like Jose Maria.
 
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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
vjcapron said:
The reason for lower shots is simple - angle of attack.

When you stand closer to the ball, you automatically have a steeper approach down on the ball. The ball is trapped against the turf, divots are deeper, and the ball flight is lower. You cannot physically take a shallow approach to the ball because your body is in the way.

Since your body is in the way, you have to take a steeper approach into the ball, and if you want to A.) take good ball-turf contact and B.) start the ball on the target line, most golfers will instinctively play the ball further back in their stance which delofts the club and you will hit the ball low and solid, like Jose Maria.
Click to expand...

Really? Huh, because i think when tiger does his stinger he still uses the elbow plane on his downswing. Also, a steeper angle of attack isn't really what you want when hitting a stinger, you'll get too much spin.
 
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