How does pivot impact lag??

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Lately I've been struggling maintaining lag. I can tell my ball contact just isn't solid and I think I'm getting a leakage hook.

Question I have, I've been extremely hands focused and think I might have been underrating the importance of pivot on maintaining lag. I believe I am swaying too much on the backswing and then hanging back. From that position it may be virtually impossible to maintain lag.

Anyone else have this problem or have any thoughts?
 

Burner

New
I was struggling recently until I realised that the lack of pivott action was the root cause of my inconsistent striking.

In my case, I was pivotting too late for it to be effective and sacrificing lag for throw away in the process.
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
yup, you get so "ball" or so "hand" focussed you forget to pivot. When you forget to pivot you have a much easier chance to lose lag PRESSURE as well as bending that left wrist through impact.

Solution?

Swing a heavy club, it will get that pivot back in order. I like the speed stik.
 
http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2787&whichpage=2

tongzilla wrote...


"The alternative to Hand Controlled Pivot is, of course, Pivot Controlled Hand per 10-24-F. That does not alter the Basic Geometry or Physics requirements but assigns Physics precedence over Geometry -- Force dictating alignments. Which obviously reduces precision. But, also Clubhead Throwaway. The information for such a procedure is all included herein -- merely Monitor the Pivot instead of the Hands." [bold by Tongzilla]

What does "Monitoring" mean? Homer says:
""Monitoring" is awareness -- through "Feel", "Feedback", sensation -- of the location, condition, direction, etc. of any element for any purpose." [bold by Tongzilla]

Lets look at 10-24-F:
"The Pivot may be educated to produce geometric Hand and Club alignments and relationships with some degree of precision which would definitely improve control. Expanding this infiltration could serve as your "Relative Translation procedure (3-B) to true "Hand Controlled Pivot" procedures. But -- except as a temporary Band Aid, any mandatory Component position or location can only be disruptive and carries a prohibitive price tag." [bold by Tongzilla]

6-P-0:
"Never try to "make a shot". Make a "MOTION" -- the Motion makes the shot."

And herein, "Motion" is...?

So, if you are Monitoring the Pivot then you are using ...?




this is something I have given thought to on several occasions regarding hand versus pivot controlled, maybe a chicken or the egg thing...
 
while viewing this swing, what do you see?

http://www.grumpygolf.com/

http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2788



tourdeep states...

Looks like a nice example of float loading as bman discusses on confessions video...?


While dicussing float loading and pivot motion, Bman states in confessions to learn to hit the ball by "walloping" the ball with the pivot via the "pivot powered hands controlled pivot" ...If so, does one distinuish itself between hands controlled pivot versus pivot controlled hands? Or does it really matter?
 
Oh yes, and one more thing regarding the chicken or egg. I think we finally have an answer...

A chicken and an egg are lying in bed. The chicken is leaning against
the headboard smoking a cigarette, with a satisfied smile on its face.
The egg, looking a bit pissed off, grabs the sheet, rolls over, and
says: "Well, I guess we finally answered THAT question."
 
quote:Originally posted by Tball88

Lately I've been struggling maintaining lag. I can tell my ball contact just isn't solid and I think I'm getting a leakage hook.

Question I have, I've been extremely hands focused and think I might have been underrating the importance of pivot on maintaining lag. I believe I am swaying too much on the backswing and then hanging back. From that position it may be virtually impossible to maintain lag.

Anyone else have this problem or have any thoughts?

You're a classic example of the fact that putting the mind in the hands encourages them to "add" to the pivot or even eliminate the pivot. The pivot should provide ALL the speed that the inert arms get. If the arms are inert, just how can the hands make finely tuned corrections anyway?

Take a proper grip, set up to the ball correctly, and get your mind on making a good core rotation. Let the spinning flywheel put pressure on PP #4 and pin the left arm to the left pectoral muscle. Keep rotating through to the finish, and the lagging sweetspot will find the ball.
 
quote:Originally posted by Tball88

Lately I've been struggling maintaining lag. I can tell my ball contact just isn't solid and I think I'm getting a leakage hook.

Question I have, I've been extremely hands focused and think I might have been underrating the importance of pivot on maintaining lag. I believe I am swaying too much on the backswing and then hanging back. From that position it may be virtually impossible to maintain lag.

Anyone else have this problem or have any thoughts?

First, work on your Pivot without a club and with arms hanging down or behind your back.
Follow all the photos in 9-1.
Do it slowly in front of the mirror stopping at each station. Then slowly but continuously -- a free flowing turn in both directions. Then at "normal" speed. Notice it's almost impossible to go too fast.
All Pivot motion moves parallel to the selected Delivery Line (the Plane Line for Swingers).
Make sure your Right Shoulder remains On Plane at Start Down via the Hip Slide.

Pivot Lag is ensuring that your feet initiates the Downstroke, then your Knees, then your Hips, etc ("Gear Train" effect). Halting the Backstroke motion with the Feet and letting this same tension pull the Downstroke through Impact is "swinging from the Feet" and gives the Stroke maximum Swing Radius (7-17).

Now I will tell you about a 2-step drill I've invented. Let me know if anyone has discovered this already!

Step 1: Pivot Controlled Hands
With a club in your hands, make a full swing continuously back and forth from Address (8-3) to The Top (8-6) and then to Finish (8-12) then immediately to The Top of the Backstroke again -- never restarting at Address after Finish. Do this continuously and very smoothly. (I know some guys out there will say this is "rebound" and Ben Doyle will go crazy if he sees this, but it's a drill.)

While you're doing the above, keep you minded totally focused on your Pivot or Body. Think of all the things you've been working on with the Pivot, per the first part of my post. Your mind is in your Pivot (which is everything except your hands and arms). So continue going back and forth with that smooth swing, and really ingrain that wonderfully correct Pivot motion. All the time, you are Monitoring the Pivot.

Step 2: Hand Controlled Pivot
This is the heart of my drill. Now while making that smooth swing continuously, without making any conscious change to your Pivot motion, put your mind completely into your Hands. This means focus on the Delivery Path of the Hands, its Clubhead Lag Pressure Point, and its Plane Line Tracing (with the Right Forearm). All motion is focused on driving the Hands -- not the club -- toward that imaginary ball. Maintain Clubhead Lag relationship to the Plane Line, not to the Body. Learn to swing the Hands and Monitor the Hands.

I said quite a few things in that last paragraph. Lets clarify what I did not say. I did not say you should start to tighten up or stiffen your Wrists. I did not say you should start the Downstroke with your Hands. I did not say you have to take the Club away with your Right Forearm. I did not say you should restrict your Pivot and use your Hands to hit the ball.

You never stop when doing this drill. It's always a continuous motion even when you're making the transition from Step 1 to Step 2. When you've mastered this drill, Step 1 and Step 2 should look exactly the same to the naked eye. But the Ball can tell the difference ;).
 

rundmc

Banned
quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

quote:Originally posted by Tball88

Lately I've been struggling maintaining lag. I can tell my ball contact just isn't solid and I think I'm getting a leakage hook.

Question I have, I've been extremely hands focused and think I might have been underrating the importance of pivot on maintaining lag. I believe I am swaying too much on the backswing and then hanging back. From that position it may be virtually impossible to maintain lag.

Anyone else have this problem or have any thoughts?

First, work on your Pivot without a club and with arms hanging down or behind your back.
Follow all the photos in 9-1.
Do it slowly in front of the mirror stopping at each station. Then slowly but continuously -- a free flowing turn in both directions. Then at "normal" speed. Notice it's almost impossible to go too fast.
All Pivot motion moves parallel to the selected Delivery Line (the Plane Line for Swingers).
Make sure your Right Shoulder remains On Plane at Start Down via the Hip Slide.

Pivot Lag is ensuring that your feet initiates the Downstroke, then your Knees, then your Hips, etc ("Gear Train" effect). Halting the Backstroke motion with the Feet and letting this same tension pull the Downstroke through Impact is "swinging from the Feet" and gives the Stroke maximum Swing Radius (7-17).

Now I will tell you about a 2-step drill I've invented. Let me know if anyone has discovered this already!

Step 1: Pivot Controlled Hands
With a club in your hands, make a full swing continuously back and forth from Address (8-3) to The Top (8-6) and then to Finish (8-12) then immediately to The Top of the Backstroke again -- never restarting at Address after Finish. Do this continuously and very smoothly. (I know some guys out there will say this is "rebound" and Ben Doyle will go crazy if he sees this, but it's a drill.)

While you're doing the above, keep you minded totally focused on your Pivot or Body. Think of all the things you've been working on with the Pivot, per the first part of my post. Your mind is in your Pivot (which is everything except your hands and arms). So continue going back and forth with that smooth swing, and really ingrain that wonderfully correct Pivot motion. All the time, you are Monitoring the Pivot.

Step 2: Hand Controlled Pivot
This is the heart of my drill. Now while making that smooth swing continuously, without making any conscious change to your Pivot motion, put your mind completely into your Hands. This means focus on the Delivery Path of the Hands, its Clubhead Lag Pressure Point, and its Plane Line Tracing (with the Right Forearm). All motion is focused on driving the Hands -- not the club -- toward that imaginary ball. Maintain Clubhead Lag relationship to the Plane Line, not to the Body. Learn to swing the Hands and Monitor the Hands.

I said quite a few things in that last paragraph. Lets clarify what I did not say. I did not say you should start to tighten up or stiffen your Wrists. I did not say you should start the Downstroke with your Hands. I did not say you have to take the Club away with your Right Forearm. I did not say you should restrict your Pivot and use your Hands to hit the ball.

You never stop when doing this drill. It's always a continuous motion even when you're making the transition from Step 1 to Step 2. When you've mastered this drill, Step 1 and Step 2 should look exactly the same to the naked eye. But the Ball can tell the difference ;).
You need a website . . . period.
 
quote:Originally posted by brianman

I think "Confessions of as Former Flipper" said all of this much better.

Silly me, I thought my video would end all this debate :(

As far as I'm concerned, it did. "Confessions" made me a believer (not to mention adding about 10-20 yds).
 
Guys, I greatly appreciate the assistance. For one thing I really believe the sway on my backswing is really hurting me. I've got to turn, not sway.

also I have to somehow figure out how to slow down my hands. There was a time last year when I had that "heavy" feeling a very slow feeling swing that compressed every iron that I hit.

I just have not been able to get that back lately. Everything feels quick and there is not pop right now.
 
Brian, I probably need to get that video. I did get two others. The pivot controlled wallop has me a bit baffled. I've always used more of a hands controlled wallop...
 
Confessions of a Former Flipper is a great production and should be owned by every TGMer. Even if you have a Flat Left Wrist, it will teach you how to hit down and wallop the ball with your Pivot. I recommend those who already own the video to review it once in a while, even if you are a former flipper.

However, it is impossible for Brian to include all the detail and nuances brought up in this thread in 60 minutes. And I suppose that's what forums are for -- to discuss, debate and elaborate ideas -- such as those in your video. It's free too :D
 
I do have confessions of a former flipper and while I think it is great, I do have a question. Do you hold the club back with your right hand to prevent early release? Also is there an advantage to having high or low hands at address? Holding the flat right wrist till impact is hard to get right. Need to keep watching former flipper. Just got it this AM.
 
Ok it's Christmas day, so first of all Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays to everyone. Luckily for me before going to church last evening I was able to go out and hit some balls.
Focused just on pivot and got to the point I wasn't even thinking about my hands. My primary focus was just to hit the ball with my right hip.

Short story, best ball striking I've had in sometime. I've always thought "don't swing at the ball with your hands" that negative thinking wasn't getting the job done. The positive thought of "hit the ball with your right hip" was getting it done. It's amazing how the mind works.

Hopefully it wasn't just a placebo effect, I'll have to try this for a while. It was definitely nice to feel compression, however, on the course it will probably be difficult for me. I like to steer the ball and this swing won't let me...
 
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