In Person lessons vs. Book learning

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wallaceja

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Over the years, I've read more golf books than I care to admit. At one point, I enjoyed this conceptual learning approach to the golf swing. Somehow I overlooked The Golfing Machine until just recently. I haven't found the book to be easy reading by any stretch. It is a jewel for sure, but I believe most mere golfing mortals should proceed with caution when it comes to seeking golf swing improvement through this or any other book.

I'm now a 1-handicapper and have lost confidence in book learning as a means for the average golfer to improve. In my estimation, someone wanting to improve ought to seek out a good instructor in their area and commit to a series of lessons. Golf is an individaul sport and beyond some bedrock fundamentals, there is much room for individual adaptation. A good instructor may be in "teach" mode initially but they will move to "coach" mode as soon as possible if in fact they are good at what they do. Coaches can prove invaluable in helping all of us navigate our journey of "individual adaptations."

I can't help but wonder what we could all accomplish if we spent less time on this and other forums "intellectualizing" and more time in real world application. Would Brian have ever improved as a player and teacher if he hadn't sought after one-on-one instruction from Ben Doyle? Not likely. Maybe we should follow his example: seek out the "Ben Doyle" in your area and commit to improve: crawl, walk, run.
 
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hue

New
quote:Originally posted by wallaceja

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I'm I can't help but wonder what we could all accomplish if we spent less time on this and other forums "intellectualizing" and more time in real world application. Would Brian have ever improved as a player and teacher if he hadn't sought after one-on-one instruction from Ben Doyle? Not likely. Maybe we should follow his example: seek out the "Ben Doyle" in your area and commit to improve: crawl, walk, run.
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Ben Doyles, Lynn Blakes and Brian Manzellas don't grow on trees. Finding a quality instructor in your area is a tall order.I agree with you 100% with what you are saying. I had to go 4000 miles to get the one on one instruction you describe. If I could find people of their quality on my own doorstep I would go and see them . They are not out there. If you have a good instructor close by go see him but if your options are only poor instructors that don't know their stuff you are better off left to your own devices IMO.
 
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Martee

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quote:Hue wrote...Ben Doyles, Lynn Blakes and Brian Manzellas don't grow on trees. ....
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IMO if you want to own your swing, you need to understand it and know it. I think reading books is interesting BUT if you are going to own it, you need to have someone who can stand back and tell you what you are doing, not what you think you are doing. You need someone who knows The Golfing Machine so he/she can in fact work with you on Your Swing and not his/her method/style. Also this instructor needs to know what the heck works with what or else you may have a swing, but making a number of compensations that arent necessary.

Sounds like you need to make a trip to one of those three IMO.
 
jpvegas1

jpvegas1

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I agree with Hue that it's vital that you get good instruction. I've played with golfers that will spend $500 on a new driver, buy all the latest books and practice aides, but won't spend a dime (or pence for Hue) on solid instruction.

Another warning is to be careful about videotaping. I bought a videocamera a couple of years ago and taped my swing. I was looking at the video when my local pro at the time came by and asked me what I saw. I told him and he was impressed and said I was spot on. Then he asked me what I was going to do about it, how and what would I change. I discovered then that I didn't have a clue.

The money I spent going to Canton was the best money I've spent on golf. The real value of having an instructor like Brian, Lynn, Ben, MikeSTLOC, or Ted is they can give you a road map to improvement, so that you can look and know what changes need to be made and how to make them.

Congratulations on your 1 handicap and best of luck on your search for improvement.
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

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quote:Originally posted by Martee

quote:Hue wrote...Ben Doyles, Lynn Blakes and Brian Manzellas don't grow on trees. ....
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I think reading books is interesting BUT if you are going to own it, you need to have someone who can stand back and tell you what you are doing, not what you think you are doing. You need someone who knows The Golfing Machine so he/she can in fact work with you on Your Swing and not his/her method/style. Also this instructor needs to know what the heck works with what or else you may have a swing, but making a number of compensations that arent necessary.

Sounds like you need to make a trip to one of those three IMO.
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I agree man. It just makes it much easier and the learning much faster.

I did it from the book and forums...have yet to see an AI.

Although, through all my efforts in trying to understand things I've prolly learned a lot too.

....

But I STILL think it would be 100 times easier if someone showed you what to do.

And I STILL want to/need to see an AI eventually.....Brian or Lynn or Chuck or someone good.
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

New
Oh...

And I think it's usually easier for someone else to tell you what you're doing wrong than yourself trying to do it.

I find it tough to slow down and really plan and sort out/fix one thing at a time or w/e.

It's too easy to get into the mode of bashing balls and trying to force it...."a thrashing mess."
 
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rundmc

Banned
quote:Originally posted by wallaceja

Over the years, I've read more golf books than I care to admit. At one point, I enjoyed this conceptual learning approach to the golf swing. Somehow I overlooked The Golfing Machine until just recently. I haven't found the book to be easy reading by any stretch. It is a jewel for sure, but I believe most mere golfing mortals should proceed with caution when it comes to seeking golf swing improvement through this or any other book.

I'm now a 1-handicapper and have lost confidence in book learning as a means for the average golfer to improve. In my estimation, someone wanting to improve ought to seek out a good instructor in their area and commit to a series of lessons. Golf is an individaul sport and beyond some bedrock fundamentals, there is much room for individual adaptation. A good instructor may be in "teach" mode initially but they will move to "coach" mode as soon as possible if in fact they are good at what they do. Coaches can prove invaluable in helping all of us navigate our journey of "individual adaptations."

I can't help but wonder what we could all accomplish if we spent less time on this and other forums "intellectualizing" and more time in real world application. Would Brian have ever improved as a player and teacher if he hadn't sought after one-on-one instruction from Ben Doyle? Not likely. Maybe we should follow his example: seek out the "Ben Doyle" in your area and commit to improve: crawl, walk, run.
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What would you say was your most important golf decision/lesson/break-through was on the road to be coming a 1? How long did it take you? How much did you/do you practice? What type of things do you practice? How much do you play vs. practice?

I think a lot of lessons could be learned from your experience. We're all hear to get better. But by most standards you have "arrived." I think people can see the 9 to scratch range as a reachable objective. I feel like people could learn a lot more from your experience than what pros are doing. Most people have ZERO chance of playing on tour but they do have a good shot at shooting in the 70's consistently.

How about your story?
 
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hue

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quote:Originally posted by birdie_man

Oh...

And I think it's usually easier for someone else to tell you what you're doing wrong than yourself trying to do it.

I find it tough to slow down and really plan and sort out/fix one thing at a time or w/e.

It's too easy to get into the mode of bashing balls and trying to force it...."a thrashing mess."
Click to expand...
I had got to the point of running out of places to go by my own devices. That is why I travelled 4000 miles to see Brian and his Canton gang. I learned things there that broke the rut I was in. I was bending the plane line right in the followthrough ,steering it and I was not aware of it. Brian showed me where I should be swinging it was so far left of what I was doing that I had trouble coming to terms with it. I needed someone like Brian who I respect to tell me this to make the radical changes. The book is great but there is no substitute for hands on one on one training from a good AI or a group of them.
 
Steve Khatib

Steve Khatib

Super Moderator
I feel sorry for you Hue, I really admire your travel to see the best and hear the truth. I have found the British PGA too concervative and stuck the same old basic but incomplete ideas of path and face and really position golf. You really are as starved for teachers as you are starved for cricketers. What are your thoughts on the standard of teaching in UK.
 
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Ian Clark

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FourBarrels, you dont really mean that we dont have any good cricketers here in dear old England now do you?? Whatever next, you will be saying we cant play rugby eiether, now be a good aussie, and admit defeat nicely.
 
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wallaceja

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As for my journey to a 1-handicap. I started playing when I was 12. I did have a series of 6 jr. lessons in Reynoldsburg, Ohio. Moved to Utah when I was 14. Worked at a course in SLC where the U of U team practiced. I played many rounds with guys from the team. Interesting thing is no one really ever said anything about my swing. They always said it looked good. I did hit many, many balls with my feet together to avoid my tendency to sway back and through the ball.

It was in my mid 20's that I started to read a lot. Started playing less and practicing more due to marriage and the arrival of children. Somehow I got in the habit of swinging a club a little bit every day. This is something that I continue to do even now. I've found that I don't benefit as much from range practice as I do from simply swinging a club. At the range, you'll hit 50% ok and 50% not so great. You'll think about the 50% that wasn't great and drive yourself crazy identifying why.

I've always had a tendency to hook the ball. I've played my best golf when I don't fight this but rather play for it.

I have had good in person lessons in recent years. Interestingly, they have always proven to be rather simplistic. The message is always make what you have work and go play the game. Mechancial adjustments have really only been a tweak here or there. Honestly, I'm trying to be less into specific positions etc. and more into overall rhythm etc.

Of all the books I've read, I have to say that How To Feel a Real Golf Swing by Toski/Love is one I've benefited from the most.

Final note: I play to my handicap level when I putt well. Obvious, but true!
 
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BigBadDonkey

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quote:Originally posted by FOUR BARRELS AUSTRALIAN

I have found the British PGA too concervative and stuck the same old basic but incomplete ideas of path and face and really position golf. You really are as starved for teachers What are your thoughts on the standard of teaching in UK.
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Not Hue, but my answer is damn right poor.
What do you expect when the poor working man has to pay for the Royal Family.
Stuck in the past , following tradition. Police in Helmets, Judges in Wiggs..... lol [:0] .
Our politics to sport are not like those of the US or Australia.
 
Steve Khatib

Steve Khatib

Super Moderator
Ian, first, youre right you got the Ashes and the rugby, but I just wanted to get back at you guys because of the Pakistan debarcle.

Donkey, I love the tradition but in G.O.L.F. I have come across some terrible British teachers charging big pounds for lessons, the best British teachers are the expats who now teach overseas- Europe and Asia.
What our than politics are the reasons, I just couldnt believe the poor standard, it must improve soon surely, I think Joe Daniels is trying to crack the British Market with TGM.

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN
 
Burner

Burner

New
quote:Originally posted by BigBadDonkey
Our politics to sport are not like those of the US or Australia.
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Thank goodness for that.:D

We don't have much to crow about, and crowing is just not British anyway - leave that to the Aussies, its their only real talent;); so lets at least be thankful for what we do have.

Back to the point at hand, I will not take instruction in the UK right now but may go see Ian Clark presently.
 
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Ian Clark

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Firstly, Burner you are welcome to come and see me at any time, but please allow me to try and give a little update regarding TGM here in England. We now have our first AI, he is Reeves Weedon who teaches at Hartsbourne GC, North London, I am taking my level 2 class in February 2006, so touch wood, England will have 2 AI, a bit like London buses, you wait ages and nothing comes then suddenly two at the same time!!
As far as the general level of coaching here, I feel Four Barrels has a point,A lot of the really good coaches who started here have left for foreign shores, Leadbetter, Hall,Shankland, Spearman, to name but a few, I am sure with a little thought we can add to the list.I have spoken to the British PGA regard TGM, and you never know with Joe Daniels help, we could see TGM really develop here, the PGA were interested to hear what I had to say, so Reeves and myself are looking at putting something together to present to the PGA. If that doesnt work, I will just have to move to Florida!!!!!!
 
Steve Khatib

Steve Khatib

Super Moderator
I like Martin Hall but I cant say the other coaches you mentioned are even close to his expertise.

Ian well done mate, you must keep at it and stay in England and spread the word. Throw
the cat amongst the pidgeons in the good old conservative PGA.

By the way the first AI from the UK is a gentlement named Tom in Ireland. He loves Ben so much in the winter he teaches indoors he has a whole sand box put in his basement. Ben is so proud of Tom.

Is Ireland any connection to England, it is still part of the UK? I think maybee you all could get together for a seminar and talk the truth!
 
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Ian Clark

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4Barells, no I agree Martin Hall is head and shoulders above the others, I was just using them as examples. I was talking about England only, I know there are other English AIs out there, a lot of whom teach in Germany, I was talking about AIs actually teaching in England.
Thanks for the encouragement though 4Barells, maybe one day we might bump into each other.
 
Steve Khatib

Steve Khatib

Super Moderator
Keep spreading the word pro in UK,

Love to catch up Ian, we could talk G.O.L.F. over a pint or three, maybee in Melbourne at the ashes next year. Rematch, Go Aussies!
 
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