John Redman Swing Approach

[kc8kir]

Has anyone else read the golf swing book by John Redman?

In the book, he advocates starting the turn of the hips back to the left prior to the backswing of the arms being completed. In a sense, he creates a dynamic response to the swinging of the clubhead.

What's the opinion on this sort of action? Is it good for pure swinging only?

Seems to me, many good players could be classified as starting their downswing before the arm swing back was completed (Hogan certainly has that look, as does Moe Norman), almost as if they were whipping the golf club and automating the transition.

Now I know, we also have float loading. So what seperates what Redman talks about from float loading? The intention? The application to patterns focused on pure swinging?

It's important to note that Redman also wants plays to use the hip turn to control the entire swing, and very much advocates the feel of a lagging clubhead. Basically the hips turn, the club responds, the hips turn back and bring the club through.

I've fooled around at the range with Redman's idea and I'm not sure where the line is drawn between float loading and intentionally moving left while the club is still swinging back (or nearing its apex), but Redman's idea produces some new and interesting swing feels. Primarily, it really activates some new feelings in the hands regarding lag and clubhead pressure. The shaft feels very very dynamic as a result of the transition, almost feeling like a long leaf spring snapping into the ball. The swing also feels like one continous motion, back and through. I hit some really really fantastic shots as a result of a very shallow pass through the ball.

Comments?

 

[burners]

Friendly Advice

I think this instructor worked with Azinger for a while.

Anyway, you better go watch Manzella's Episode #5 on YouTube, and edit this post ASAP. Else, get ready for a thermo-nuclear detonation.

 

[kc8kir]

Already seen it. That's why I posed the question about the difference between "float loading" and "intentionally starting back left while the club is still swinging back".

I think there is something to be explored here. I know Brian said "if you try that, you're gonna hit some funny shots". Question is... how many people have tried it and have any people grooved it? To Redman, it's a deliberate action. Could it be used as a timing mechanism or another way to create lag or stress the shaft? Is it a different way to achieve the float load through deliberate body motion?

 

[kc8kir]

Fact is, you can watch all the swings on video that you want, and analyze them however you want, but to be inside the mind of the player, to analyze the actual intent... well... that's another question entirely.

Who is to say Moe or Hogan didn't deliberate do it in order to gauge their swing via the shaft stress it creates? Not everyone swings to a total pause at the top of the swing.

 

[trashpar]

I've had the book for several years, and have used the method with moderate success. There are some similarities that I see to Redman's method with SD:
* Early core rotation
* Lagging clubhead takeaway
* More across the line at the top
* More of an in and up move

Redman being a Ernest Jones, Percy Boomer, Tommy Armour type of guy believes in a more level, stationary hip turn AND shoulder turn. The SD pattern, as Brian has laid it out is way more dynamic IMHO, and produces more speed and better impact conditions.

 

[savydan]

There's a rumour that Hogan tried it and liked it but who knows.....

Ask yourself this while looking at a good player's swing: when exactly does the backswing stop and the transition begin? When is the transition over with and the downswing starting? Is there a point in time (sorry Lanny) that everything is still? Not if the guy can hit a drive 300 yards......

 

[trashpar]

I still fight a "hangover" effect with this method..too flat of a shoulder turn. Translates into lots of toe hits, which I've been battling lately.

 

[Deadly_Scope]

Has anyone else read the golf swing book by John Redman?

In the book, he advocates starting the turn of the hips back to the left prior to the backswing of the arms being completed. In a sense, he creates a dynamic response to the swinging of the clubhead.

What's the opinion on this sort of action? Is it good for pure swinging only?

Seems to me, many good players could be classified as starting their downswing before the arm swing back was completed (Hogan certainly has that look, as does Moe Norman), almost as if they were whipping the golf club and automating the transition.

Now I know, we also have float loading. So what seperates what Redman talks about from float loading? The intention? The application to patterns focused on pure swinging?

It's important to note that Redman also wants plays to use the hip turn to control the entire swing, and very much advocates the feel of a lagging clubhead. Basically the hips turn, the club responds, the hips turn back and bring the club through.

I've fooled around at the range with Redman's idea and I'm not sure where the line is drawn between float loading and intentionally moving left while the club is still swinging back (or nearing its apex), but Redman's idea produces some new and interesting swing feels. Primarily, it really activates some new feelings in the hands regarding lag and clubhead pressure. The shaft feels very very dynamic as a result of the transition, almost feeling like a long leaf spring snapping into the ball. The swing also feels like one continous motion, back and through. I hit some really really fantastic shots as a result of a very shallow pass through the ball.

Comments?

All good players float load to some extent. Even with the players that supposedly loads early in the backstroke, the left wrist will still cock a 'little' more on the start on the downstroke.

What does not happen is this idea that the entire power package (arms and club and shoulder line) is moving back whilst the hip turn is going into its slide. Hogan didn't do this, and neither did Moe Norman but are perfect examples of what I wrote in the last paragraph.

 

[Deadly_Scope]

I've had the book for several years, and have used the method with moderate success. There are some similarities that I see to Redman's method with SD:
* Early core rotation
* Lagging clubhead takeaway

These two attributes are quite good if interpretted properly.

At startup, you try to put a 'strong' initial force onto the club and the active static resistance of the hands maintaining their conditions creates the secondary force to control the loading around the left wrist center.

I'll try to keep this post of practical importance.

Lets say you have a big heavy wooden log directly behind your clubhead at address and you pushed it away 'hard' without changing your wrist conditions in terms of bend/arch. This move is exactly how you want to start your swing/stroke.

The full stroke isn't a putting stroke and it has a pivot which starts the moment you start back from the ball.

 

[kc8kir]

All good players float load to some extent. Even with the players that supposedly loads early in the backstroke, the left wrist will still cock a 'little' more on the start on the downstroke.

What does not happen is this idea that the entire power package (arms and club and shoulder line) is moving back whilst the hip turn is going into its slide. Hogan didn't do this, and neither did Moe Norman but are perfect examples of what I wrote in the last paragraph.

I agree on the first part, but can you substantiate the second part? More importantly, can you substantiate the feels associated with those individuals swings that produced their pivot actions? Perhaps to them, the feel was indeed one of starting back the other direction while the arms and club finished swinging back?

I agree about keeping the thread practical, but I seriously wonder if a player could use that intention to produce a more dynamic pivot motion and what the affects would be (consistency, ball flight, etc).

Remember that feels are very difficult to capture from watching swing videos!

 

[kc8kir]

And just for the record, I'm not suggesting "starting the downswing ahead of the upperbody backswing" was a "Hogan Secret", producing a block fade out of a hook swing.

Though the idea is interesting...

Lol. No more on that!

 

[whipnzip]

There's a rumour that Hogan tried it and liked it but who knows.....

Ask yourself this while looking at a good player's swing: when exactly does the backswing stop and the transition begin? When is the transition over with and the downswing starting? Is there a point in time (sorry Lanny) that everything is still? Not if the guy can hit a drive 300 yards......

So true.
Transtion is much like a baseball pitcher's move; the arms are still going back as the pitcher's weight has moved to the left leg.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCugqNjPemU[/media]

Somebody posted Greg McHatton's swing, and it's plain to see in that vid.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Its a good book despite some of the errors in it (you do use the right arm to put pressure on the side of the shaft, John!). Very SD. Problem is he advocates it as "the swing I teach". Not very versatile if you ask me. That method would sure help alot of people but it isnt for evrybody like he says.

 

[Tarheel90]

I worked with John Redman in 1989, which was around the height of his popularity due largely to Paul Azinger's success. At the time, I was a rising senior on the UNC at Chapel Hill golf team. Not completely his fault, but I went from being a pre-season all-american following a solid junior year, to a guy who could not hit it into the ocean from the shore (unless I was aiming down the beach with the ocean on my right). He basically told me the following: "The hips and shoulders turn back "level" to the ground as you "stand the club up" to the top, then the hips turn level and fast back around the other way as you hold the clubface off with a strong left hand grip...he consistently referred to coming through the ball in such a way that you could "rest a coke can on the clubface" when the clubshaft was parallel to the ground on the follow-through. His approach to teaching was very much "my way or the highway" and there was little to no explanation as to why the golf ball behaved the way it did and what should be done to control it. I did develop a very useful punch shot with the short irons but was all over the map with the long clubs. Moreover, there was never any mention of momentum transfer or lateral weight shift on the downswing...he simply wanted me to "turn and turn" while "standing the club up"= recipe for disaster with no roadmap as to how to get back. Great guy, although rough around the edges, but very little substance behind the pattern he believes should work for everyone. I believe his book has a few juicy tidbits in it, but is too skewed towards his personal preferences to be of much use to the masses.

 

[whipnzip]

he consistently referred to coming through the ball in such a way that you could "rest a coke can on the clubface" when the clubshaft was parallel to the ground on the follow-through.

Ouch!

...he simply wanted me to "turn and turn"

Memory could slip, but I recall reading in his book the explanation that the hand was steady while propelling a rock on a string in a circular motion as a basis for "turn-turn". My thought was... not possible, the hand must oscillate a little to propel the rock and hold it in orbit, and with two-points (feet, legs, hip joints) there had to be some change of balance.

I thought his chapter on the grip was excellent.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I worked with John Redman in 1989, which was around the height of his popularity due largely to Paul Azinger's success. At the time, I was a rising senior on the UNC at Chapel Hill golf team. Not completely his fault, but I went from being a pre-season all-american following a solid junior year, to a guy who could not hit it into the ocean from the shore (unless I was aiming down the beach with the ocean on my right). He basically told me the following: "The hips and shoulders turn back "level" to the ground as you "stand the club up" to the top, then the hips turn level and fast back around the other way as you hold the clubface off with a strong left hand grip...he consistently referred to coming through the ball in such a way that you could "rest a coke can on the clubface" when the clubshaft was parallel to the ground on the follow-through. His approach to teaching was very much "my way or the highway" and there was little to no explanation as to why the golf ball behaved the way it did and what should be done to control it. I did develop a very useful punch shot with the short irons but was all over the map with the long clubs. Moreover, there was never any mention of momentum transfer or lateral weight shift on the downswing...he simply wanted me to "turn and turn" while "standing the club up"= recipe for disaster with no roadmap as to how to get back. Great guy, although rough around the edges, but very little substance behind the pattern he believes should work for everyone. I believe his book has a few juicy tidbits in it, but is too skewed towards his personal preferences to be of much use to the masses.

Sorry to hear about your struggles but this is very well put. Did you know John Aber?

 

[vjcapron]

I worked with John Redman in 1989, which was around the height of his popularity due largely to Paul Azinger's success. At the time, I was a rising senior on the UNC at Chapel Hill golf team. Not completely his fault, but I went from being a pre-season all-american following a solid junior year, to a guy who could not hit it into the ocean from the shore (unless I was aiming down the beach with the ocean on my right). He basically told me the following: "The hips and shoulders turn back "level" to the ground as you "stand the club up" to the top, then the hips turn level and fast back around the other way as you hold the clubface off with a strong left hand grip...he consistently referred to coming through the ball in such a way that you could "rest a coke can on the clubface" when the clubshaft was parallel to the ground on the follow-through. His approach to teaching was very much "my way or the highway" and there was little to no explanation as to why the golf ball behaved the way it did and what should be done to control it. I did develop a very useful punch shot with the short irons but was all over the map with the long clubs. Moreover, there was never any mention of momentum transfer or lateral weight shift on the downswing...he simply wanted me to "turn and turn" while "standing the club up"= recipe for disaster with no roadmap as to how to get back. Great guy, although rough around the edges, but very little substance behind the pattern he believes should work for everyone. I believe his book has a few juicy tidbits in it, but is too skewed towards his personal preferences to be of much use to the masses.

I've had this book for years. Redman got lucky with Azinger because of his strong-as-it-gets left hand grip. This method only works with a 5-knuckle left hand grip.

The real genius was Dr. Jim Suttie, who was Paul's junior college golf coach at Brevard. He knew Redman's method would work well for Paul, who couldn't break 80 two days in a row before seeing Redman. 2 years later he was an Division I All-American at Florida and on the PGA Tour.

 

[puttmad]

Here's my two penneth, for what it's worth....

The "look" the original poster talked about is easy to produce....it is simply a result of two basic conditions during the backswing..

The first is the speed of the backswing and the secong is the absence of left arm "pec grab" at address, ie. a loose connection between upper arm and chest, or a totally loose shoulder connection...
If you simply swing the club back much faster than normal with no pec grab, the energy in the arms tends to throw them far higher, or back around, than normal, and you'll find you are "starting down" while they are still going backwards...

From a "feel" point of view it is quite a pleasant feeling, but unfortunately from a consistency standpoint it is very hard to time impact, probably due to the different positions of the left upper arm relative to the chest, and the exact timing of the move to "start down"

 

[Tarheel90]

Hey Kevin! Yes, I knew John very well...played with him two years. He was, and is, a great guy and a gritty competitor...and he would always beat you with a smile on his face. Dr. Aber is an awesome guy too. I have not seen John in a few years but I know that he is doing well and I am happy for him. Cheers to all!