Kinetic chain & trebuchet

Status
Not open for further replies.
Mandrin
Can you clarify your position on the kinetic chain for me..... as i understand it a section slows for the transfer of energy to speed up the next section and so on???
In some other forums i read where people with "qualifications" say this does not happen with the pivot and it does not brake at all particulary when they are discussing Ben Hogan's swing. The reasoning is that a trebuchet effect in his swing ( catapult but you would know this)
I find this hard to be factual..... but i simply don't know...Possible for you to give me the thruth?:confused:
golfspike,

When using the expression ‘kinetic chain’ one is referring to the transfer of kinetic energy between linked moving objects.

Change in kinetic energy is equal to work done. Work done is due to the presence of both internal and external forces/torques.

External torques due to contraction of muscles across the joints and internal forces due to the inertial reaction forces acting at the joints.

The golfer/club ensemble forms a kinetic chain and the aim should be to transform the generated kinetic energy in the downswing efficiently into clubhead speed.

Once the masses are set into motion they exert mutually internal inertial reaction forces which, while creating no net kinetic energy, do redistribute energy.

This is the essential feature of a kinetic chain, this redistribution of the kinetic energy form one mass to another due to passive internal inertial forces.

In a downswing any energy flowing to the clubhead due to this redistribution augments the efficiency of the conversion of effort employed into clubhead speed.

A mass can only transfer its kinetic energy to another by slowing down. For instance, arms slowing down prior to impact allow some of its energy to flow to the clubhead.
trebuchet_2.jpg

The trebuchet is equivalent to a double pendulum golfer but standing on his head. Notice how the sling dramatically slows down the driving beam when they are getting aligned. This is amplified as the driving force reduces simultaneously. This action is quite similar to that occurring in golf down stroke.
 
golfspike,

When using the expression ‘kinetic chain’ one is referring to the transfer of kinetic energy between linked moving objects.

Change in kinetic energy is equal to work done. Work done is due to the presence of both internal and external forces/torques.

External torques due to contraction of muscles across the joints and internal forces due to the inertial reaction forces acting at the joints.

The golfer/club ensemble forms a kinetic chain and the aim should be to transform the generated kinetic energy in the downswing efficiently into clubhead speed.

Once the masses are set into motion they exert mutually internal inertial reaction forces which, while creating no net kinetic energy, do redistribute energy.

This is the essential feature of a kinetic chain, this redistribution of the kinetic energy form one mass to another due to passive internal inertial forces.

In a downswing any energy flowing to the clubhead due to this redistribution augments the efficiency of the conversion of effort employed into clubhead speed.

A mass can only transfer its kinetic energy to another by slowing down. For instance, arms slowing down prior to impact allow some of its energy to flow to the clubhead.
trebuchet_2.jpg

The trebuchet is equivalent to a double pendulum golfer but standing on his head. Notice how the sling dramatically slows down the driving beam when they are getting aligned. This is amplified as the driving force reduces simultaneously. This action is quite similar to that occurring in golf down stroke.

Mandrin,
thanks for your detailed explanation so in the trebuchet example the weight/mass of the clubhead would slow down the arms so the clubhead releases and aligns itself to the leading arm?
 
golfspike,

When using the expression ‘kinetic chain’ one is referring to the transfer of kinetic energy between linked moving objects.

Change in kinetic energy is equal to work done. Work done is due to the presence of both internal and external forces/torques.

External torques due to contraction of muscles across the joints and internal forces due to the inertial reaction forces acting at the joints.

The golfer/club ensemble forms a kinetic chain and the aim should be to transform the generated kinetic energy in the downswing efficiently into clubhead speed.

Once the masses are set into motion they exert mutually internal inertial reaction forces which, while creating no net kinetic energy, do redistribute energy.

This is the essential feature of a kinetic chain, this redistribution of the kinetic energy form one mass to another due to passive internal inertial forces.

In a downswing any energy flowing to the clubhead due to this redistribution augments the efficiency of the conversion of effort employed into clubhead speed.

A mass can only transfer its kinetic energy to another by slowing down. For instance, arms slowing down prior to impact allow some of its energy to flow to the clubhead.

The way I understand this is that the slowing down is necessary if there is no external force present that would do enough work to provide more kinetic energy to the hands than what is being transferred to the club.
Whether or not this can happen in a real golf swing is another matter and I'm not convinced one way or the other right now.

BTW - What comes to intentionally slowing down hands to speed up the club, I do not think it can be efficient. Yes, that force could increase the angular momentum of the club and rotational speed around it's center of gravity... But, the total kinetic would go down and I just cannot think that it could increase the energy transferred to the clubhead, compared to a situation where you still try to speed up the hands and more kinetic energy is being generated to the system.

Rotational speed and angular momentum of the club are not equal to velocity of the clubhead towards the ball. Or everything depends on your point of observation.

p.s. I do find this discussion interesting. How useful it'll be for being able to swing the club better? Who knows - I certainly don't right now.
 
Last edited:
The trebuchet motion is interesting. The trebuchet counterweight is like the golfer's left shoulder. Is this how/why the 'throw the drunk' move works so well? (for me anyway)
 
The trebuchet motion is interesting. The trebuchet counterweight is like the golfer's left shoulder. Is this how/why the 'throw the drunk' move works so well? (for me anyway)

i know some one who says how your reaer-end is your counterweight, and you can use it as in a terbuchet
 
Mandrin,
thanks for your detailed explanation so in the trebuchet example the weight/mass of the clubhead would slow down the arms so the clubhead releases and aligns itself to the leading arm?
golfspike,

As soon as a club starts to accelerate angularly in the down swing it exerts a braking torque back on the arms. The faster the down swing the greater this braking torque. Hence the idea some seem to have that by exerting more effort it will somehow mysteriously go away is erroneous. Release and braking are like Siamese twins discussing chicken and egg problems. :)

It would have been rather interesting to show precisely how the release mechanism relates to the radial and transverse acceleration of the hands, a possible optimum mix and their effect on retention, and how release relates to the trajectory of the hands but from now on you better ask hcw about these matters. He might possibly be no good but at least he shows some aptitude to look up things in a dictionary. :D
 

nmgolfer

New member
The force driving a trebuchet is for practical purposes constant.

F(t)=const.

where

F=mgsin(theta) i.e. a falling mass

where for small angle changes (as in a trebuchet swing) sine(theta)=1

So what can be said about a trebuchet "swing" is that the arm link slows down.

Extrapolate to a real golf swing at your own risk

Again the idea of "constant" anything in a golf swing is flat out wrong. A better golfers work (force through distance) starts slow and peaks at (or near) impact.
 
golfspike,
As soon as a club starts to accelerate angularly in the down swing it exerts a braking torque back on the arms. The faster the down swing the greater this braking torque. Hence the idea some seem to have that by exerting more effort it will somehow mysteriously go away is erroneous. Release and braking are like Siamese twins discussing chicken and egg problems. :)
:D
I don't know if that refers to me, but must say that I agree 100% on the above.

On the other hand, at least from theoretical point of view, one could exert enough (increasing) accelerating torque to the hands to compensate this, so the hands would not have to slow down. And that does not mean that the breaking torque disappears, no way, it's still there.
 
Last edited:

The force driving a trebuchet is for practical purposes constant.


F(t)=const.

where

F=mgsin(theta) i.e. a falling mass

where for small angle changes (as in a trebuchet swing) sine(theta)=1

So what can be said about a trebuchet "swing" is that the arm link slows down.

Extrapolate to a real golf swing at your own risk

Again the idea of "constant" anything in a golf swing is flat out wrong. A better golfers work (force through distance) starts slow and peaks at (or near) impact.
nmgolfer,

Please, stop flooding this forum with your erroneous ideas.

The angle is by no means constant. Instead it varies about 110 degs.

Hence a considerable variation in the magnitude of the driving force/torque.

It actually reaches its minimum value when he projectile is being released. :D

All in all, nice ‘shoulder turn’ and great ‘free-wheeling’ through impact. :p

trebuchet.gif
 
golfspike,

As soon as a club starts to accelerate angularly in the down swing it exerts a braking torque back on the arms. The faster the down swing the greater this braking torque. Hence the idea some seem to have that by exerting more effort it will somehow mysteriously go away is erroneous. Release and braking are like Siamese twins discussing chicken and egg problems. :)

It would have been rather interesting to show precisely how the release mechanism relates to the radial and transverse acceleration of the hands, a possible optimum mix and their effect on retention, and how release relates to the trajectory of the hands but from now on you better ask hcw about these matters. He might possibly be no good but at least he shows some aptitude to look up things in a dictionary. :D

Yeah i saw his post but im interested in the science mandrin not the psych stuff:)
So reading between the lines you are telling me if the trebuchet as an example for the downstroke in golf you can still apply extra speed or force to this mechanism i.e add some right side thrust with arm/hand/shoulder and it will result in extra cubhead speed
 
Yeah i saw his post but im interested in the science mandrin not the psych stuff:)
So reading between the lines you are telling me if the trebuchet as an example for the downstroke in golf you can still apply extra speed or force to this mechanism i.e add some right side thrust with arm/hand/shoulder and it will result in extra cubhead speed
golfspike,

Please, remain with what is actually written.
I lost interest in rowing against the stream,
so ask the real ‘experts’ such as hcw, bronco,
or if you are really desperate even nmgolfer.
Best of luck. :D
 
golfspike,

Please, remain with what is actually written.
I lost interest in rowing against the stream,
so ask the real ‘experts’ such as hcw, bronco,
or if you are really desperate even nmgolfer.
Best of luck. :D

Mandrin
I am only trying to understand what you are writing so i will try again
In the trebuchet downswing the faster the motion on the angular plane the more the wrist would retain the cock ( if it was there at the top of backswing) and would uncock very late closer ot impact?????
P.S this is not a trick question !! I will accept your answer just after clarification
 
Last edited:

nmgolfer

New member
No way Jose

nmgolfer,

Please, stop flooding this forum with your erroneous ideas.


Huh? And you sir get to be the judge, jury, arbiter of what constitutes an "eroneous idea"? I don't think so Mandrin. No way Jose.


...The angle is by no means constant. Instead it varies about 110 degs.

Hence a considerable variation in the magnitude of the driving force/torque.

It actually reaches its minimum value when he projectile is being released....

Color for dummies...

Anyone can draw (calculate) anything they want to but that does not mean it represents anything close to reality. Even if a trebuchet driving force angle (force vs time) varies widely it still does not imply anything about a golf swing.

Yours, Mandrin is a fine example of the "red herring" logical fallacy (an irrelevant topic to divert attention)... either that or "questionable cause" logical fallacy. Just because golfers talk about the trebuchet often does not mean its in any way related to the golf swing.
 
Huh? And you sir get to be the judge, jury, arbiter of what constitutes an "eroneous idea"? I don't think so Mandrin. No way Jose.




Color for dummies...

Anyone can draw (calculate) anything they want to but that does not mean it represents anything close to reality. Even if a trebuchet driving force angle (force vs time) varies widely it still does not imply anything about a golf swing.

Yours, Mandrin is a fine example of the "red herring" logical fallacy (an irrelevant topic to divert attention)... either that or "questionable cause" logical fallacy. Just because golfers talk about the trebuchet often does not mean its in any way related to the golf swing.
nmgolfer,

Looking at your posts it is evident that there is no substance, only all kind of curious insinuations not even worth a rebuttal.

I am getting really curious about your age, your arguments all seem so immature. So much spinning around and such silly fatuous remarks.

Do you really know anything about science at all or does it stop at Reader’s Digest. I could suggest some excellent schools for re-education.
 

nmgolfer

New member
Ad Hominem... the last bastion of narcissists & scoundrels

nmgolfer,

Looking at your posts it is evident that there is no substance, only all kind of curious insinuations not even worth a rebuttal.

I am getting really curious about your age, your arguments all seem so immature. So much spinning around and such silly fatuous remarks.

Do you really know anything about science at all or does it stop at Reader’s Digest. I could suggest some excellent schools for re-education.

That post sir, is a fine example of the Ad Hominem logical fallacy.

While seeing the results of your canned math package output is amusing, it has absolutely no relevancy to a real golfswing. Carry on Mandrin. Keep digging.
 
L'arroseur arrosé. Qui sème le vent récolte la tempête....

nmgofler,

It was kind of fun working on your education.
Try to grow up to be an adult.
It really does not hurt.

mandrin

Translation for dummies:

‘The boot is now on the other foot’ :p
 

nmgolfer

New member
mandrin... its all in the archives on this forum for anyone to read...

Need I remind you that it was you selling the readers of this forum a centrifugal force baloney sandwich not so very long ago? Need I remind you that it was I who pointed out how only a physics neophyte and or a scientific layman could make such an egregious mistake? But people aren't interested in that. Being a nice guy I'll not rub your face in the many... many... errors you've made to date. Needless to say you have been and continue to be full of the brown stinky stuff (caca).

But I'll admit you're learning ... slowly but surely you're learning.

Lets continue shall we weedhopper? You wanted a discussion... you sobbed like a baby because no one was participating in your charade er .... thead.

So lets continue shall we?

Why give up now? Are you a quitter? I'm not a quitter.

I'm ready willing and able to continue correcting your mistakes.

I only require that you continue to put forth some effort.

Sow the wind and you will Harvest the storm... you can do it mandrin.

you can do it.
 
Amen

nmgolfer,

I admire you, so truly on a mission, debunking myths.
Leaving this forum I will have a bit of spare time,
Shall I become member of this nmgolfscience affair.
You will have finally one person to exchange ideas. :D
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top