lag and trigger delay affecting plane

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lagster

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Do you ever see students that when working on lag, and or, increasing trigger delay that the downswing plane will steepen, i.e., move well above the "elbow" or even "turned shoulder" plane?
If so, what do you believe is the cause of this, and what corrections are needed to keep the shaft on an acceptable plane?

lagster
 
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EdZ

New
The down and around force vectors are out of balance, too much down, need more around. Feel the lag in the back of the lead shoulder, and let it move through the arm to PP3 and stay there, or better, feel the lag in the entire lever and get that 'heavy', 'slow', 'drag' feeling.

heavy club, inside back corner
 
Burner

Burner

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quote:Originally posted by EdZ

The down and around force vectors are out of balance, too much down, need more around. Feel the lag in the back of the lead shoulder, and let it move through the arm to PP3 and stay there, or better, feel the lag in the entire lever and get that 'heavy', 'slow', 'drag' feeling.

heavy club, inside back corner
Click to expand...
Ed,

Isn't PP3 part of the trail arm set up[?] If so, at what point does the shift from lead shoulder/arm to trail shoulder/arm/index finger happen[?];)
 
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EdZ

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The lag motion is a 'crack the whip' motion...

I think martin hall's image of water through a hose is one of the better ones

the 'energy' moves down the line - you can feel it in one place (pp3) at transition (hitter) or move it 'down the line' (swinger)

The whip is the entire left leg, side, arm, club, and yes, pp3

If you can feel it 'fill the hose' down to PP3, you have sustained lag, and passed the 'water' to the next/final link in the chain - the more you feel the lag down the entire length, the heavier the club will feel, and the more 'mass' you will have - think of PP3 as the final 'kink in the hose' - that releases the pressure of the water as the angle is released - to the inside back corner of the ball
 
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Turfspanker

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Tilt is very important for those seeking maximum lag. But I'll insert a word of caution for over doing it if you are steep or on the turned shoulder plane. For instance, if you set up without much tilt, you will find that when dragging your clubhead downplane with a bent right/flat left wrist, you may require a significant amount of hip slide/turn targetwards in order to square the clubface at separation. Unless you are very young and flexible, you will pay for this with a sore lower back. Strong Single Action grip helps prevent over-slide/rotation but this may not be the cure to the problem. It is really important to set up correctly for the downswing so you don't overdo the hip slide/rotation at impact...ala Hank Kuehne. Follow Brian's guidance for the correct setup in order to prevent a heavy lag, steep plane, big hip slide/rotation at impact. Dragging the primary lever as Ed suggests is probably not a good idea if you have these tendencies. Pushing/Driving the primary lever while dropping the right shoulder would be my advice, but never-the-less get the right set up so you don't have to make compensations on your downswing and potentially hurt your back. Preventative medicine is setting up the machine properly.
 
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lagster

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I filmed myself recently swinging a rope, as suggested on another topic. I noticed that the rope traced the elbow plane every time(right across the forearm). I then swung trying to have the same sensations as with the rope, and the shaft traced the elbow plane, just as with the rope.

The sensations for me are of being very loose wristed, and not reintroducing tension back into the wrists on the downswing, and of the right forearm going cross line on the delivery.

Now, however, the shaft does not go up the front of the plane very well, but stays well above, possibly a result of a compensation left over from the steep swing. My swing does have tilt, even with the steep swing. When steep, the left shoulder seems to open too rapidly.

Swinging with the rope, however, seemed to correct many of the flaws that were in there. Now, how to get the lag, and trigger delay better, without disrupting the plane?
 
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mb6606

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Is it possible to have "loose wrists" and have an arched or flat left wrist at impact? Using the "twist take away" I feel like the left and right wrist are locked into place through impact. The left and right arm angles (relative to each other) remain the same through impact. Is this action Homer's "flying wedge"??
 
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EdZ

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Turf - I disagree that the thought of dragging the primary lever is a bad thing for this, but certainly agree that a strong single action grip makes the move much simpler. The focus must be inside back corner, or you will indeed get steep (with any approach). When you move the focus of 'inside back corner' to the lead shoulder, it tends to take care of the too steep issue. Agreed that setup is vital to getting this right. If the shoulders turn too flat, you just can't get there.

An exaggerated pivot drill that may help - imagine you are going to tackle/break down a door with the back of your lead shoulder, and the door was at a 45 degree angle to the target line (exaggerated) - do the drill with your arms folded, or add in trying to 'elbow' the door, and you will get the general feel of

'hitting the inside corner, with the back of your lead shoulder'

remember this is an exaggeration, intended to get you a touch flatter, but the general sensation of the back of the lead shoulder is a good one to get regardless - this should also help you get 'counter fall'
 
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lagster

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EdZ--- The left shoulder goes to the inside quadrant, but do you feel a pulling sensation from the left shoulder? Are the shoulders having the feel of being closed at impact?

With regards to the flat shoulder turn... are you speaking of the backswing or downswing , or both?

What is the TWIST TAKEAWAY? It sounds as if it works well for some people?
 
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Turfspanker

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EdZ - This is my opinion because I am not an instructor and I don't pretend to be. From my personal experience, dragging the primary lever assembly radially, i.e. the entire left arm and shaft as a single unit, places a significant amount of stress on the left shoulder and back unless it is assisted with right arm thrust which is a hitting procedure (pushing). Dragging the primary and secondary lever assembly longitudinally using a swinging procedure is the safe bet. Think of swinging a 6 foot 2x2. From the top if you pulled (dragged) it down, there would be a lot of stress on the left shoulder unless you braced the motion with right arm thrust. Now imagine a hinge in the middle of the board that turned it into two levers (Primary lever and secondary lever). Much easier to drag from the top with less stress. I think you are advocating something that is not only a poor procedure, but also physically harmful. Now I could be wrong about this, I'm just a recreational golfer.
You are promoting the concept of hitting the inside quadrant with the back of the left shoulder. This implies the shoulders are closed at impact. I have never seen a good player in this position at impact. In fact the opposite is true, the shoulders are square to open at impact. Sorry, I don't get it. Is this some kind of imagery you are recommending? Again in my experience, the shoulders stay closed from the end of the swing, to the top at transition, but once the hips rotate through the sit down position, the shoulders never stay closed into impact unless its a specialty shot. I feel bad for the guys on the range taking this advice literally.

As an aside, you are a prolific poster on this board and answer many questions directed to Brian as a subject matter expert. Are you a qualified instructor? I would be interested in hearing about your teaching experience.
 
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Turfspanker

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Lagster,

I think you are on track with the rope swinging drill, I have found that one to be excellent as well. Helps train the right shoulder to move down instead of out at the start of the downswing. When I do it, it goes over plane at the finish if my left wrist bends and/or I don't roll my left forearm through the impact zone into the finish.
 
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MizunoJoe

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TSpank,

Using the right arm to assist in a pure swing does not make it hitting. You can pull with the right arm.

And, you are correct about the shoulders - they are ALWAYS open at impact in a good swing. It is possible to have closed shoulders at impact, but it requires the left arm to blast off the chest way too soon.
 
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EdZ

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As I said, this is an exaggeration drill.

The 'back of the lead shoulder' image is one that gets folks behind the ball properly on the backswing, gets the lower body supporting properly (counter fall onto lead leg at startdown), and gets folks on the proper inside/square/inside track. No, I don't advocate closed shoulders at impact, not at all, square to open is correct. The vast majority of folks are so 'out and over' (because they don't get behind the ball properly), that this drill tends to put them on the right track. 'feeling' like the shoulders are closed, is a good way for many people to find the proper balance however.

The drag of the lever isn't the entire structure, it is the lead shoulder to wrist (to 'mirror point'/'rotation point'), imagine trying to pull the shaft out of the clubhead, or 'make the shaft longer', from the top.

We agree, my appologies if I wasn't clear enough - agreed that trying a 'full sweep' motion of the entire lever would kill your shoulder quickly (not to mention your distance).

I have been playing/studying the swing since before I could walk (32+ years). I teach privately when I have time, and am a software engineer by trade.
 
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lagster

New
How much tilt do you recommend at setup, and should this vary from short irons to driver. Short chips and pitches, obviously do not require tilt.

I have a thin body type... noticed at the top on film that my hands were getting close to my head, and with the driver, the head covered the hands. This did seem to change the tilt of the spine to more vertical. I think I tend to do this because I like to feel the #4 pressure point loaded at the top(connected). Because of the thin chest, when I keep the hands away from the right shoulder or head at the top, I don't feel #4, so the hands tend to keep going.

On the downswing, I did get some tilt... maybe this is what's hurting my back and right hip...right heel seems to raise prematurely also.


The downswing also tends to float load.

I'm thinking I might do better with more of a snap load or random...keep the hands away from the right shoulder at the top to maintain the tilt... then drive the hands at the inside quadrant.

My natural tendency, however, is to have more of a float loading type of motion, so I'm not sure how this would work under playing conditions. I feel as if I have to have a very slow backswing and pause at the top in order not to have this float loading occur. Kind of tough to do under playing conditions for me.






I noticed that in the pictures of Bobby Clampett(similar body type) that his hands got behind his head at the top and he doesn't have much tilt, and does not have much at start down as I recall( his right shoulder stays high for a long time in the downswing), however he is on plane and has lag. The timing of my swing is nothing like his, but I am similar at the top regarding the hands and tilt. I'm not saying I should copy Bobby, but just thought of this as a body type comparison.
 
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lagster

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Brian,

I don't know about this virus thing or who it is.
I am authorized in TGM (G.O.L.F.)

What about my last post on page 1 concerning tilt and #4 pressure point etc.?

Seems as if my questions have gotten lost in this Natural Golf controversy!
Natural Golf seems like kind of a hitting procedure to me. I guess it's OK if people are having fun with it.

I remember there was another Natural Golf a few years ago... the Peter Croker version.
It looked like a hitting pricedure also, but had some TGM influence.

Anyway, I had a question on page 1 concerning pressure pt. #4, connection, hands behind the head, Bobby Clampett etc.

Thanks
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
YES...there is a tendency to get OFF PLANE, above the plane, by peopel trying to bang down on the ball (hands forward).

But, there is also a tendency to get BELOW the plane trying for more trigger delay, which is where this 'stuck behind you' junk got started.
 
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lagster

New
You say that trying for trigger delay can flatten the plane.

When I try to get the right elbow deep in front of the right hip, with the hands beyond the line of sight, the plane steepens. What is happening?

How would you recommend working on trigger delay?
 
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