Lag, lie angle and loft

[dsmith2296]

An observation I made on the range today was that with high hands at impact, I seem to yank balls when I really try to lag the clubhead. As you may have read in a previous post of mine, I have lowered my hands at impact, which in turn flattens the lie angle of the clubhead. I have had good results from this.

My theory is this: A forward leaning shaft at impact reduces loft and closes the face. This seems to be exaggerated by a steeper lie angle, i.e. higher hands. A flatter lie angle, i.e., lower hands, seems to accomodate more forward lean with less closure of the clubface.

If I am not making sense, grab a club and address a ball with the clubface resting flat on a flat surface. Now add forward lean. Do you see that the loft reduced and the clubface closed a little? Now flatten the lie angle by lowering the hands a little (the should make the bottom of the toe end of the club a little off the ground with the heal soled) and then add forward lean. Did you observe that with the flatter lie angle, you were able to add more forward lean, but at a lesser expense of clubface closure?

Now if you don't recall from my other post, I have always come up and out of my posture with high hands and throw away. Now I am getting more comfortable with lagging the clubhead and getting the butt end of the club passed the ball before the clubhead without yanking it.

So my theory is that there is a given amount of lag that will accomodate each lie angle without closing the clubface too much. And the more lag you want to have without too much clubface closure, the flatter the lie angle must be.

I welcome all to rip this theory to shreds. It really won't hurt my feelings a bit!

 

[tongzilla]

Well, for starters, a forward leaning shaft at impact is as likely to open the face as it is to close it.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Shaft lean opens the face. Lower hands at address closes the face so forward hands at impact offset this (see Donnie Hammond)

 

[dsmith2296]

Shaft lean opens the face. Lower hands at address closes the face so forward hands at impact offset this (see Donnie Hammond)

Which way are you leaning it? If you lean it backwards, it opens the clubface. I stand here very humbled with a club in my hand striking a neutral address position and then leaning the shaft targetward and my clubhead clearly delofts and closes. Now if I lean it toward right field, it perhaps opens a bit. And when I lay it back in a scooping fashion it opens.

Now I said my feelings wouldn't get hurt if you attacked my theory, but I stand here dumbfounded trying to open the clubface simply by adding forward lean.

As for Tongzilla's comment, I think there is a definite answer to a static club. Obviously we all have different swing dynamics and can achieve just about any result by any change in a moving swing. So to that end I see your point.

 

[dashfan87]

If you take a club, hold it square, and lean it forward... its going to open the club face.
what you do with your hands and grip during your swing to manipulate the clubface, is another story...

 

[dsmith2296]

I feel like I am in Bizzaro World! Would this mean that scooping closes the clubface?

Historically, when I have had club layback (opposite of forward lean, i.e. scooping) I hit weak and high fades. But when I started to hit with more shaft lean (effectively delofting and hooding the clubface) I hit long hot hooks.

Obviously the hand dynamics come into play here since the hands are attached to the end of the very shaft you are leaning. I have to say that I am puzzled-- but apparently in the minority.

 

[Jared Willerson]

Leakage Hookers........flipping closes the clubface.....

 

[dashfan87]

Leakage Hookers........flipping closes the clubface.....

That would have been my response...

obviously, there are allot of other factors... but, a static club, leaned forward, opens the face, backward closes... try it...

 

[mrose]

if your hands are back the clubhead is ahead and closed to your arc. if your hands are forward the clubhead is behind and open to your arc. this is unless you have manipulated the clubhead to counter this. the only way to close the clubface while moving hands forward is to roll the hands somewhat.

the natural inclination is to leave the toe behind either way. that is if you drag the hands forward the heel follows and the toe drags behind leaving the clubface open. if the hands move back the heel follows and the toe lags behind leaving the club slightly closed.

 

[teacherfitter]

Lie angle?

An observation I made on the range today was that with high hands at impact, I seem to yank balls when I really try to lag the clubhead. As you may have read in a previous post of mine, I have lowered my hands at impact, which in turn flattens the lie angle of the clubhead. I have had good results from this.

My theory is this: A forward leaning shaft at impact reduces loft and closes the face. This seems to be exaggerated by a steeper lie angle, i.e. higher hands. A flatter lie angle, i.e., lower hands, seems to accomodate more forward lean with less closure of the clubface.

If I am not making sense, grab a club and address a ball with the clubface resting flat on a flat surface. Now add forward lean. Do you see that the loft reduced and the clubface closed a little? Now flatten the lie angle by lowering the hands a little (the should make the bottom of the toe end of the club a little off the ground with the heal soled) and then add forward lean. Did you observe that with the flatter lie angle, you were able to add more forward lean, but at a lesser expense of clubface closure?

Now if you don't recall from my other post, I have always come up and out of my posture with high hands and throw away. Now I am getting more comfortable with lagging the clubhead and getting the butt end of the club passed the ball before the clubhead without yanking it.

So my theory is that there is a given amount of lag that will accomodate each lie angle without closing the clubface too much. And the more lag you want to have without too much clubface closure, the flatter the lie angle must be.

I welcome all to rip this theory to shreds. It really won't hurt my feelings a bit!

When the toe is off the ground the lie angle is more upright not flatter. Toe down -flatter/toe up-upright

 

[dsmith2296]

When the toe is off the ground the lie angle is more upright not flatter. Toe down -flatter/toe up-upright

I must be in Bizzaro World. I just gave my 4 year old son my driver to hold at address. When he holds it, the toe is way up in the air (he is too short to sole it level on the ground) and the heal sits on the ground. The club is on so flat of a plane, its almost like a baseball player's. And you say toe-up = upright?

I give up.

 

[dsmith2296]

Nevermind-- Apparently "lie angle" is a constant angle for a given club and is not the angle one creates by holding a club and addressing a ball-- which would then provide for an infinite amount of lie angles depending on how high you held your hands.

This revelation appears to make my post meaningless. The moderator is welcome to delete it.