left arm rotation on backswing?
- Thread starter TYORKE1
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What you rotate back, you must rotate through. Seems obvious, but most don't rotate through. Counter to what you might think, "allowing" rotation back, actually makes rotating through much more automatic. If you "try" not to rotate, you will get into a position where it is actually harder to do so coming down - where all you can, and should, do is focus on right arm thrust (Hitter)
The clubface can either be:
a) "basically" flat against the plane during the motion (swinger - lots of rotation)
b) 'nearer' to perpendicular, 90 degrees, to the plane (hitter - lots of right arm thrust)
In both cases there is a single point (the "rotation" or "mirror" point) that stays on ITS plane relative to the top of the spine/base of neck/shirt label. It is nearest to PP#1.
Imagine a rod from the base of your neck to the "tip of the triangle", PP#1, the point where your hands meet
A swinger will rotate around that point (using horizontal hinge - rotation point) and a hitter with "mirror" the wrist hinge at that point (angled hinge)
So either "allow" rotation back, or don't, but getting stuck in the middle will make things much harder than they can be.
You can see the 'rotation point' in the sequence of Clampett. Imagine that line from the base of the neck to the hands, and you will see he rotates around that point in a smooth motion
The clubface can either be:
a) "basically" flat against the plane during the motion (swinger - lots of rotation)
b) 'nearer' to perpendicular, 90 degrees, to the plane (hitter - lots of right arm thrust)
In both cases there is a single point (the "rotation" or "mirror" point) that stays on ITS plane relative to the top of the spine/base of neck/shirt label. It is nearest to PP#1.
Imagine a rod from the base of your neck to the "tip of the triangle", PP#1, the point where your hands meet
A swinger will rotate around that point (using horizontal hinge - rotation point) and a hitter with "mirror" the wrist hinge at that point (angled hinge)
So either "allow" rotation back, or don't, but getting stuck in the middle will make things much harder than they can be.
You can see the 'rotation point' in the sequence of Clampett. Imagine that line from the base of the neck to the hands, and you will see he rotates around that point in a smooth motion
Agreed
I am not talking about either of those centers per se, but about the radius of the circle of a point from the pivot center, to PP1 - the line in 3 demensional space. While the 'length' of that radius isn't constant during the entire swing, its plane is (ideally, given zero plane shift).
Wheel rim, or spoke, in either case.
Most clearly seen at both arms straight.
As Hogan said, it is best to always keep one arm straight throughout the swing.
Regardless of if the left arm (left side of triangle) is straight (backswing to both arms straight)
or the right arm (right side of triangle)is straight (both arms straight to finish)
The tip of the triangle stays on the same plane, as drawn from the pivot center to PP1 - In other words, full extension on both sides of both arms straight, as pivoting/rotating around the tip of the triangle.
'part' of the reason that the 'mind is in the hands' is that the hands represent the tip of the triangle, the end of the spoke or edge of the rim
I am not talking about either of those centers per se, but about the radius of the circle of a point from the pivot center, to PP1 - the line in 3 demensional space. While the 'length' of that radius isn't constant during the entire swing, its plane is (ideally, given zero plane shift).
Wheel rim, or spoke, in either case.
Most clearly seen at both arms straight.
As Hogan said, it is best to always keep one arm straight throughout the swing.
Regardless of if the left arm (left side of triangle) is straight (backswing to both arms straight)
or the right arm (right side of triangle)is straight (both arms straight to finish)
The tip of the triangle stays on the same plane, as drawn from the pivot center to PP1 - In other words, full extension on both sides of both arms straight, as pivoting/rotating around the tip of the triangle.
'part' of the reason that the 'mind is in the hands' is that the hands represent the tip of the triangle, the end of the spoke or edge of the rim
I'm all for 'orignal thinking' and write this post in that spirit.
In a Zero Shift Stroke, the Hands and their On Plane Pressure Points (#1 and #3) swing on the Turned Shoulder Plane. That Plane is by definition Flatter than that of the 'Point between the Shoulders' Plane -- the Squared Shoulder Plane you have described. [Or at least that I think you have described.]
Also, I do not understand why this 'Spine to Pressure Point radius' concept is relevant. Given the Primary Lever Assembly (Stroke Radius)and its #3 Accumulator and Rhythm, what does it contribute?
Think of it as the 'combination' of the flying wedges of the left and right arms - the tip of the triangle - the point that is part of BOTH wedges, that makes an on plane circle around the 'center' of the shoulders (which is actually not the 'top' of the shoulder/shirt label, but slightly below it - dead center of the shoulder line.
It is also the 'middle ground', between a swinger and a hitter - 'the' point that is either pulled, or pushed.
It is important to 'see' this point, to 'see' the wedges moving in a circle around the hub. The body will react very well to this image in your mind.
It is also the 'middle ground', between a swinger and a hitter - 'the' point that is either pulled, or pushed.
It is important to 'see' this point, to 'see' the wedges moving in a circle around the hub. The body will react very well to this image in your mind.
I'm going to leave this one with you, Edz.
We're in agreement that the Hands form the 'point' of the Flying Wedges, and that it is this 'Point' that is driven directly at the Ball (or at the Aiming Point). I also agree that the Left Arm Flying Wedge (the Lever Assembly) is always moving in a Circle (per 1-L #9). Where we part ways is that the 'hub' of this Circle is the Hinge Pin located in the Left Shoulder, not the 'Between the Shoulders' Center you visualize. A simple Zero Pivot Chip or Pitch Shot will verify this true Geometrical Center of the Stroke Arc.
Nevertheless, the Ball can't read a line of all this, and if what you are doing -- or even think you are doing -- works for you, then by all means, keep doing it!
Ok.... I don't have a problem agreeing to disagree, but perhaps some more food for though...
Forgeting anatomy for a second, what is efficient circular motion? A rock on a string - a stable hub and a constant radius, agreed?.
If you make a left arm only swing (zero body/shoulder motion), yes, you would have a 'hub' at the left shoulder.
If you make a right arm only swing (zero body/shoulder motion), yes you would have a 'hub' at the right shoulder.
And if you have both hands on the club and pivot around the spine, that 'total motion' hub of the hands, the tip, can not be either the left shoulder, nor the right. It may 'seem' to be the left shoulder, because yes, that IS a point of rotation of the left arm, and it may appear that the right isn't a component, because the right side of the triangle isn't straight until past impact (hence the swing 'feels' much more left sided).
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OK, very crude pic, but imagine the characters above represent (top) the arms at both arms straight, (middle) the shoulders, (lower) the 'point' directly between the shoulders. (I had a better pic, but the board seems to edit out white space)
Each of the two lower corners would be the left and right shoulder respectively, and yes there IS motion at each in the swing, so we have a 'dynamic' triangle, but a triangle none the less.
In good swings, you will see that the point of the triangle, and this 'center point' of the shoulders are in a striaght line, in the same plane at least through impact.
This 'dynamic' triangle is the root of 'connection' and 'in synch'.
Forgeting anatomy for a second, what is efficient circular motion? A rock on a string - a stable hub and a constant radius, agreed?.
If you make a left arm only swing (zero body/shoulder motion), yes, you would have a 'hub' at the left shoulder.
If you make a right arm only swing (zero body/shoulder motion), yes you would have a 'hub' at the right shoulder.
And if you have both hands on the club and pivot around the spine, that 'total motion' hub of the hands, the tip, can not be either the left shoulder, nor the right. It may 'seem' to be the left shoulder, because yes, that IS a point of rotation of the left arm, and it may appear that the right isn't a component, because the right side of the triangle isn't straight until past impact (hence the swing 'feels' much more left sided).
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OK, very crude pic, but imagine the characters above represent (top) the arms at both arms straight, (middle) the shoulders, (lower) the 'point' directly between the shoulders. (I had a better pic, but the board seems to edit out white space)
Each of the two lower corners would be the left and right shoulder respectively, and yes there IS motion at each in the swing, so we have a 'dynamic' triangle, but a triangle none the less.
In good swings, you will see that the point of the triangle, and this 'center point' of the shoulders are in a striaght line, in the same plane at least through impact.
This 'dynamic' triangle is the root of 'connection' and 'in synch'.
In a sound Golf Stroke, the Left Arm swings in an arc around its Center at the Left Shoulder. In Pivot Strokes, this Stroke Center is in motion around the Pivot Center. The fact that the Left Shoulder is 'in motion' (and thus produces less than a 'perfect' circle) does not negate the fact that it is the true geometric center of the circumerence Traced by the circling Clubhead. Further, the Right Arm never swings from the Right Shoulder, even in a Right Arm Swing (in which case the Stroke Center is transferred from the Left Shoulder to the Right Elbow).
Thus, there is ideally only one 'circle' in the Stroke and that is the one whose circumference is Traced by the Left Arm and Clubshaft Radius. Attempting to introduce a Right Arm Circle of any kind (in addition to the Left Arm Circle) is totally unnecessary and, in fact, produces conflicting alignments. Active or Passive, unless the Right Arm has a Straight Line Piston Motion, you do not have a sound Stroke.
The club only knows what the hands tell it. Yes/no?
What is efficient circular motion (rock on a string)?
1) stable hub
2) constant radius
Agreed yes or no?
And no, I am not suggesting the right arm is the center (but that the left is NOT the true center of the total motion of the hands) That the true center of the 'circle' that the hands travel on is the 'center point' between the shoulders.
ah, you may say, but the hands do NOT travel in a perfect circle....
Yes - because the ground is hit before low point is reached, and the benefits of the margin for error that lag gives dictate this
Why are mid body hands most helpful?
Because they are the 'balanced triangle' that I am talking about - take a look at Hogan's setup
I can certainly understand why some might feel the left shoulder is the center.
IF the left shoulder were the 'center' of the hand/club motion, why then is the 'steady head' considered so important?
Wouldn't, if the left shoulder were the true center, the 'stable left shoulder' be as critical? (assuming you agree that efficient circular motion requires a stable center and radius)
If the left shoulder were the center of the motion, wouldn't it be more efficient to stand in a closed stance, zero out pivot, and just make a circle with the arm from the shoulder joint?
As for the right arm piston motion.... yes, it is important that you reach both arms straight, and due to the benefits and requirements of using lag, and the low point being below the ground, again we see the 'circle' appear to shift its center to the left - the true circular path being the 'no margin for error' choice, a straight line delivery does give more margin for error, but at the expense of efficient circular motion of the hands.
As with all things, trade offs give you margin for error, which, I would agree, a straight line thrust does give over a true circular path - but that does not change the true efficient goal of the rock on a string of the hands - lag and low point just create an illusion
In any case, I can understand why you think what you do. Alas, we can agree to disagree.
What is efficient circular motion (rock on a string)?
1) stable hub
2) constant radius
Agreed yes or no?
And no, I am not suggesting the right arm is the center (but that the left is NOT the true center of the total motion of the hands) That the true center of the 'circle' that the hands travel on is the 'center point' between the shoulders.
ah, you may say, but the hands do NOT travel in a perfect circle....
Yes - because the ground is hit before low point is reached, and the benefits of the margin for error that lag gives dictate this
Why are mid body hands most helpful?
Because they are the 'balanced triangle' that I am talking about - take a look at Hogan's setup
I can certainly understand why some might feel the left shoulder is the center.
IF the left shoulder were the 'center' of the hand/club motion, why then is the 'steady head' considered so important?
Wouldn't, if the left shoulder were the true center, the 'stable left shoulder' be as critical? (assuming you agree that efficient circular motion requires a stable center and radius)
If the left shoulder were the center of the motion, wouldn't it be more efficient to stand in a closed stance, zero out pivot, and just make a circle with the arm from the shoulder joint?
As for the right arm piston motion.... yes, it is important that you reach both arms straight, and due to the benefits and requirements of using lag, and the low point being below the ground, again we see the 'circle' appear to shift its center to the left - the true circular path being the 'no margin for error' choice, a straight line delivery does give more margin for error, but at the expense of efficient circular motion of the hands.
As with all things, trade offs give you margin for error, which, I would agree, a straight line thrust does give over a true circular path - but that does not change the true efficient goal of the rock on a string of the hands - lag and low point just create an illusion
In any case, I can understand why you think what you do. Alas, we can agree to disagree.
I have numbered the above excerpts from your prior posts and have responded in bold:
1. ...the true center of the 'circle' that the hands travel on is the 'center point' between the shoulders.
This statement ignores the Geometry of the Circle and is in direct conflict with the scientific principles of The Golfing Machine. The Golf Stroke is a circular motion, and its radius is the Left Arm and Club. Geometrically, the Center of the Clubhead Orbit lies at one end of the Radius (the Shoulder) and its Circumference at the other (the Clubhead).
2. ...the ground is hit before low point is reached...
By definition, the Low Point of the Stroke is directly opposite its Center, i.e., where the Radius (Left Arm and Club) points directly at the ground. Accordingly, that Low Point is directly opposite the Left Shoulder. Therefore, good players take turf when the Ball is positioned at mid-body. If, on the other hand, the Center of the Stroke were 'between the shoulders,' then Low Point likewise would be opposite this mid-body center, and there would be no divot.
3. IF the left shoulder were the 'center' of the hand/club motion, why then is the 'steady head' considered so important?
(1) To stabilize the Pivot Motion and (2) to provide a center for the rotating Left Shoulder, i.e., the circumference of the Shoulder Turn.
4. Wouldn't, if the left shoulder were the true center, the 'stable left shoulder' be as critical? (assuming you agree that efficient circular motion requires a stable center and radius).
The straight line requirements of the Compression Point do not demand a 'stable left shoulder.' They require only that any Shoulder Motion be centered. The Stationary Head provides the necessary hub for the circumference of the Shoulder Turn.
5. If the left shoulder were the center of the motion, wouldn't it be more efficient to stand in a closed stance, zero out pivot, and just make a circle with the arm from the shoulder joint?
In a perfect world where Power, Plane and the human body were not considerations...yes.
6. ...and the low point being below the ground, again we see the 'circle' appear to shift its center to the left...
There's no appearance of a 'shift to the left' at all. That is where the Center actually is! As previously stated, the Low Point is opposite the Left Shoulder -- the Center of the Clubhead Orbit -- not opposite the Spine.
7. ...the true circular path being the 'no margin for error' choice, a straight line delivery does give more margin for error, but at the expense of efficient circular motion of the hands.
A true 'Circle Path' of the Hands requires a Zero Tilt of the Shoulder Turn Axis (the Spine). In turn, this requires a Zero Hip (Weight) Shift. This is fine for Short Shots, but its lack of Power renders it impotent for the Long Game.
8. As with all things, trade offs give you margin for error, which, I would agree, a straight line thrust does give over a true circular path - but that does not change the true efficient goal of the rock on a string of the hands...
The Primary Lever Assembly (Left Arm and Club Radius) rotates around its Left Shoulder Center. The fact that the Turning Shoulder rotates about its own Axis (the spine) does not compromise that geometric fact. Nor does it frustrate the 'efficient goal of the [whirling] rock on a string.' In fact, it enables it!
I have numbered the above excerpts from your prior posts and have responded in bold:
my responses in red....
1. ...the true center of the 'circle' that the hands travel on is the 'center point' between the shoulders.
This statement ignores the Geometry of the Circle and is in direct conflict with the scientific principles of The Golfing Machine. The Golf Stroke is a circular motion, and its radius is the Left Arm and Club. Geometrically, the Center of the Clubhead Orbit lies at one end of the Radius (the Shoulder) and its Circumference at the other (the Clubhead).
First, I don't think you are following what I am saying (nor is bcoak), as you seem to think that impact is the point where you have a fully straight radius, which it is NOT - both arms straight is where you have a full radius.
The reason this is so - LAG - and its requirements and advantages (and no bcoak, de la torre doesn't understand this fully, or 'lag pressure')
Second - for someone who places their point on the 'scientific principles', you don't seem to understand the requirements of a pure circle - a stable hub and constant radius - but claim the 'hub of the so called left shoulder' moves?
I sure hope you don't work in a tire shop...... unbalanced wheels for everyone
2. ...the ground is hit before low point is reached...
By definition, the Low Point of the Stroke is directly opposite its Center, i.e., where the Radius (Left Arm and Club) points directly at the ground. Accordingly, that Low Point is directly opposite the Left Shoulder. Therefore, good players take turf when the Ball is positioned at mid-body. If, on the other hand, the Center of the Stroke were 'between the shoulders,' then Low Point likewise would be opposite this mid-body center, and there would be no divot.
The low point of the circle depends on how you position the hub and spoke relative to the ground actually... given a constant radius, there is NO low point, per se, inherent in a circle, only in its relative position to the ground
and when did I ever say the ball should be at mid body? - nope, not at all, unless you want 'zero' lag and no divot or adjust the grip/clubface relationship (compensation)
In fact, I think that is where you misunderstand what I am saying most, what I am describing is not mid body hands at impact.
3. IF the left shoulder were the 'center' of the hand/club motion, why then is the 'steady head' considered so important?
(1) To stabilize the Pivot Motion and (2) to provide a center for the rotating Left Shoulder, i.e., the circumference of the Shoulder Turn.
Yes, to stablize the ENTIRE motion. Watch good players - what part of their body stays the most stable during the entire motion?
answer - the hub - the point directly between the shoulders I am describing
re: the 'rotating left shoulder' - yep - what is the centerof that rotation again - the center of the shoulders - what are the arms attached to?
again - your 'scientific' moving hub is where you are confused
4. Wouldn't, if the left shoulder were the true center, the 'stable left shoulder' be as critical? (assuming you agree that efficient circular motion requires a stable center and radius).
The straight line requirements of the Compression Point do not demand a 'stable left shoulder.' They require only that any Shoulder Motion be centered. The Stationary Head provides the necessary hub for the circumference of the Shoulder Turn.
efficient circular force requires a stable hub, yes - the stationary head, which in reality is the stationary 'base' that the head is attached to, that spot right between the shoulders again....
5. If the left shoulder were the center of the motion, wouldn't it be more efficient to stand in a closed stance, zero out pivot, and just make a circle with the arm from the shoulder joint?
In a perfect world where Power, Plane and the human body were not considerations...yes.
Actually, the ONLY way the left shoulder is the 'hub' is if this is the case
6. ...and the low point being below the ground, again we see the 'circle' appear to shift its center to the left...
There's no appearance of a 'shift to the left' at all. That is where the Center actually is! As previously stated, the Low Point is opposite the Left Shoulder -- the Center of the Clubhead Orbit -- not opposite the Spine.
Keywords - Axis tilt and lag
The 'spoke' I am talking about is basically at 90 degrees to the shoulder line at impact, because of axis tilt there is a straight line relationship to the left shoulder\club at this point, yes - but that does not make it the 'hub' of the circular motion of the hands/swing.
Think about this a bit, and why 'both arms straight' is an important goal on every shot, and a clear point where the radius IS actually straight
7. ...the true circular path being the 'no margin for error' choice, a straight line delivery does give more margin for error, but at the expense of efficient circular motion of the hands.
A true 'Circle Path' of the Hands requires a Zero Tilt of the Shoulder Turn Axis (the Spine). In turn, this requires a Zero Hip (Weight) Shift. This is fine for Short Shots, but its lack of Power renders it impotent for the Long Game.
Nope, this is only required if you are still thinking that the ball is also at mid body, or that the 'true' radius is fully extended at impact, which it is not - remember, LAG
8. As with all things, trade offs give you margin for error, which, I would agree, a straight line thrust does give over a true circular path - but that does not change the true efficient goal of the rock on a string of the hands...
The Primary Lever Assembly (Left Arm and Club Radius) rotates around its Left Shoulder Center. The fact that the Turning Shoulder rotates about its own Axis (the spine) does not compromise that geometric fact. Nor does it frustrate the 'efficient goal of the [whirling] rock on a string.' In fact, it enables it!
There is that moving 'center' again - what is it all rotating around? Yep, that point between the shoulders again - THE axis of the total motion - again, it can only truly rotate around the left shoulder as 'center' if there is zero pivot/shoulder turn.
Yes, the left arm rotates, but you are again being decieved by the illusion of thinking the shoulder is the center of that rotation (in 3 demensional space)
There was a great pic a while back, I think it was one of Redgoats of DL III, that shows the hands in their circle around the base of the neck....if anyone can find it again, this is a good illustration of the 'point'
my responses in red....
1. ...the true center of the 'circle' that the hands travel on is the 'center point' between the shoulders.
This statement ignores the Geometry of the Circle and is in direct conflict with the scientific principles of The Golfing Machine. The Golf Stroke is a circular motion, and its radius is the Left Arm and Club. Geometrically, the Center of the Clubhead Orbit lies at one end of the Radius (the Shoulder) and its Circumference at the other (the Clubhead).
First, I don't think you are following what I am saying (nor is bcoak), as you seem to think that impact is the point where you have a fully straight radius, which it is NOT - both arms straight is where you have a full radius.
The reason this is so - LAG - and its requirements and advantages (and no bcoak, de la torre doesn't understand this fully, or 'lag pressure')
Second - for someone who places their point on the 'scientific principles', you don't seem to understand the requirements of a pure circle - a stable hub and constant radius - but claim the 'hub of the so called left shoulder' moves?
I sure hope you don't work in a tire shop...... unbalanced wheels for everyone
2. ...the ground is hit before low point is reached...
By definition, the Low Point of the Stroke is directly opposite its Center, i.e., where the Radius (Left Arm and Club) points directly at the ground. Accordingly, that Low Point is directly opposite the Left Shoulder. Therefore, good players take turf when the Ball is positioned at mid-body. If, on the other hand, the Center of the Stroke were 'between the shoulders,' then Low Point likewise would be opposite this mid-body center, and there would be no divot.
The low point of the circle depends on how you position the hub and spoke relative to the ground actually... given a constant radius, there is NO low point, per se, inherent in a circle, only in its relative position to the ground
and when did I ever say the ball should be at mid body? - nope, not at all, unless you want 'zero' lag and no divot or adjust the grip/clubface relationship (compensation)
In fact, I think that is where you misunderstand what I am saying most, what I am describing is not mid body hands at impact.
3. IF the left shoulder were the 'center' of the hand/club motion, why then is the 'steady head' considered so important?
(1) To stabilize the Pivot Motion and (2) to provide a center for the rotating Left Shoulder, i.e., the circumference of the Shoulder Turn.
Yes, to stablize the ENTIRE motion. Watch good players - what part of their body stays the most stable during the entire motion?
answer - the hub - the point directly between the shoulders I am describing
re: the 'rotating left shoulder' - yep - what is the centerof that rotation again - the center of the shoulders - what are the arms attached to?
again - your 'scientific' moving hub is where you are confused
4. Wouldn't, if the left shoulder were the true center, the 'stable left shoulder' be as critical? (assuming you agree that efficient circular motion requires a stable center and radius).
The straight line requirements of the Compression Point do not demand a 'stable left shoulder.' They require only that any Shoulder Motion be centered. The Stationary Head provides the necessary hub for the circumference of the Shoulder Turn.
efficient circular force requires a stable hub, yes - the stationary head, which in reality is the stationary 'base' that the head is attached to, that spot right between the shoulders again....
5. If the left shoulder were the center of the motion, wouldn't it be more efficient to stand in a closed stance, zero out pivot, and just make a circle with the arm from the shoulder joint?
In a perfect world where Power, Plane and the human body were not considerations...yes.
Actually, the ONLY way the left shoulder is the 'hub' is if this is the case
6. ...and the low point being below the ground, again we see the 'circle' appear to shift its center to the left...
There's no appearance of a 'shift to the left' at all. That is where the Center actually is! As previously stated, the Low Point is opposite the Left Shoulder -- the Center of the Clubhead Orbit -- not opposite the Spine.
Keywords - Axis tilt and lag
The 'spoke' I am talking about is basically at 90 degrees to the shoulder line at impact, because of axis tilt there is a straight line relationship to the left shoulder\club at this point, yes - but that does not make it the 'hub' of the circular motion of the hands/swing.
Think about this a bit, and why 'both arms straight' is an important goal on every shot, and a clear point where the radius IS actually straight
7. ...the true circular path being the 'no margin for error' choice, a straight line delivery does give more margin for error, but at the expense of efficient circular motion of the hands.
A true 'Circle Path' of the Hands requires a Zero Tilt of the Shoulder Turn Axis (the Spine). In turn, this requires a Zero Hip (Weight) Shift. This is fine for Short Shots, but its lack of Power renders it impotent for the Long Game.
Nope, this is only required if you are still thinking that the ball is also at mid body, or that the 'true' radius is fully extended at impact, which it is not - remember, LAG
8. As with all things, trade offs give you margin for error, which, I would agree, a straight line thrust does give over a true circular path - but that does not change the true efficient goal of the rock on a string of the hands...
The Primary Lever Assembly (Left Arm and Club Radius) rotates around its Left Shoulder Center. The fact that the Turning Shoulder rotates about its own Axis (the spine) does not compromise that geometric fact. Nor does it frustrate the 'efficient goal of the [whirling] rock on a string.' In fact, it enables it!
There is that moving 'center' again - what is it all rotating around? Yep, that point between the shoulders again - THE axis of the total motion - again, it can only truly rotate around the left shoulder as 'center' if there is zero pivot/shoulder turn.
Yes, the left arm rotates, but you are again being decieved by the illusion of thinking the shoulder is the center of that rotation (in 3 demensional space)
There was a great pic a while back, I think it was one of Redgoats of DL III, that shows the hands in their circle around the base of the neck....if anyone can find it again, this is a good illustration of the 'point'
What I describe is not in conflict with Homer (re: science), only in the 'illusion' that makes it appear to you that this applies to the left shoulder.
At impact, we both are describing the same position... and the 'flail' is absolutely present, as is lag - the 'in line' condition of the 'spoke' is at both arms straight - max speed and in line condition AFTER separation, never at separation (no margin for error)
'See' the flail as a straight line from the base of the neck to the hands, 90 degrees to the shoulder line, the 'rotation point' near PP1, and the 'hub' at the base of the neck
THAT is the true primary lever.... the point of force you are swinging
At impact, we both are describing the same position... and the 'flail' is absolutely present, as is lag - the 'in line' condition of the 'spoke' is at both arms straight - max speed and in line condition AFTER separation, never at separation (no margin for error)
'See' the flail as a straight line from the base of the neck to the hands, 90 degrees to the shoulder line, the 'rotation point' near PP1, and the 'hub' at the base of the neck
THAT is the true primary lever.... the point of force you are swinging
Brian Manzella
Administrator
I have to side with holenone on this one, ED.
Ed...do you agree that LOW POINT is opposite the left shoulder?
Ed...do you agree that LOW POINT is opposite the left shoulder?
Low point is opposite the left shoulder, because of axis tilt, yes
but that is not 'full radius' of the circle that the hands travel on - that is, and can only be, at both arms straight
again, it is only 'low point' because of 'relative' positions to the ground vs full extension
full extension = full radius
Axis tilt is a requirement of creating lag. Forward of center ball position is a requirement of creating lag and margin for error.
What I describe should help folks understand why mid body hands are useful at address,what 'connection' really is, and what 'rhythm' really achieves in a good swing.
It also explains why many differing swings work - they all have this in common through impact at least - a straight spoke of the 'line of force', the 3d 'flail' that you are basically 'hugging' at address with mid body hands - keep that flail in the center of your arms, keep its center still (base of neck, between shoulders) and keep that 'center point' and the 'rotation point', near PP1 on the same plane.
but that is not 'full radius' of the circle that the hands travel on - that is, and can only be, at both arms straight
again, it is only 'low point' because of 'relative' positions to the ground vs full extension
full extension = full radius
Axis tilt is a requirement of creating lag. Forward of center ball position is a requirement of creating lag and margin for error.
What I describe should help folks understand why mid body hands are useful at address,what 'connection' really is, and what 'rhythm' really achieves in a good swing.
It also explains why many differing swings work - they all have this in common through impact at least - a straight spoke of the 'line of force', the 3d 'flail' that you are basically 'hugging' at address with mid body hands - keep that flail in the center of your arms, keep its center still (base of neck, between shoulders) and keep that 'center point' and the 'rotation point', near PP1 on the same plane.
Lisa Manzella
Manzella Golf Academy BrianManzella.com Administra
BRIAN MANZELLA POSTING HERE:
Mid-body hands 'work' because it is easier to:
#1 take the club back on plane
#2 make a more distinct change of directions
#3 Start 'all' in between the feet
Low point is opposite the left shoulder because THAT"S THE LOWEST THE CLUB CAN "HANG"...it has nothing to do with axis tilt.
Mid-body hands 'work' because it is easier to:
#1 take the club back on plane
#2 make a more distinct change of directions
#3 Start 'all' in between the feet
Low point is opposite the left shoulder because THAT"S THE LOWEST THE CLUB CAN "HANG"...it has nothing to do with axis tilt.
I am talking about the HANDS and their relationship to the BODY and CENTER. The club responds to the hands and their position.
The HANDS are, by definition, farthest away from CENTER when both arms are straight
The left shoulder can NOT be an efficient HUB if it MOVES - this is basic, simple physics.
And mid body hands also work because they most closely define the radius and proper angle formed by the lead arm and shoulder line - axis tilt puts that 'package' in the proper place at impact, while still maintaining the RELATIVE relationships of the triangle to the body.
The lowest the club can HANG is both arms straight, dead center of the stance, zero axis tilt. In other words, where both HANDS are at their farthest point away from the body center. Max radius.
The HANDS are, by definition, farthest away from CENTER when both arms are straight
The left shoulder can NOT be an efficient HUB if it MOVES - this is basic, simple physics.
And mid body hands also work because they most closely define the radius and proper angle formed by the lead arm and shoulder line - axis tilt puts that 'package' in the proper place at impact, while still maintaining the RELATIVE relationships of the triangle to the body.
The lowest the club can HANG is both arms straight, dead center of the stance, zero axis tilt. In other words, where both HANDS are at their farthest point away from the body center. Max radius.
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