Local courses losing money???
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adamscot89
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my friend is an assistant at a nice course, they had to lay off a lot of their maintenance crew and the assistants and inside guys started doing some chores outside like raking bunkers etc.
I would say try to run specials for people in the area that inlcude a meal or a shirt, it worked pretty good, makes them feel like they are getting a deal and the course doesn't hurt from it profit wise.
I would say try to run specials for people in the area that inlcude a meal or a shirt, it worked pretty good, makes them feel like they are getting a deal and the course doesn't hurt from it profit wise.
Kevin Shields
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softconsult
New
I agree with Kevin, but this isn't going to happen at most courses. At country clubs, the committees rule and this often leads to less than creative thinking. The traditionalists generally rule.
My other observation is that for the most part, Pro's at the Clubs I have belonged to are lazy and certainly not entrepenurial. They play the required political kiss butt game, and don't make waves.
Public courses can be amazingly mis-managed. Dis-interested employees, water dispensers and ball washers out of water.
Here is a contrary example. Played Tapawingo, a public course in St. Louis a few years ago. This place is a machine. Top drawer. Courteous staff. Meticulously maintained. Organized. And to Kevin's point, a babe on a beer cart. They are packed all season long.
One of the things that really hurt Country Clubs was the tax law change of 1986. Furthermore, a time goes on and business expenses increase, perks like club memberships get axed. Clubs loose members. If they raise dues too much, they lose more members. Then it's assessment time which has potential to drive away members.
My other observation is that for the most part, Pro's at the Clubs I have belonged to are lazy and certainly not entrepenurial. They play the required political kiss butt game, and don't make waves.
Public courses can be amazingly mis-managed. Dis-interested employees, water dispensers and ball washers out of water.
Here is a contrary example. Played Tapawingo, a public course in St. Louis a few years ago. This place is a machine. Top drawer. Courteous staff. Meticulously maintained. Organized. And to Kevin's point, a babe on a beer cart. They are packed all season long.
One of the things that really hurt Country Clubs was the tax law change of 1986. Furthermore, a time goes on and business expenses increase, perks like club memberships get axed. Clubs loose members. If they raise dues too much, they lose more members. Then it's assessment time which has potential to drive away members.
Richie3Jack
New
When I first came to Atlanta in 2000, I was pretty much in golf hell. Any course that was decent was a private, equity ownership type of deal with initiation fees of at least $15k and some upwards to $300k. There are still many courses like that. Anything that wasn't private was a dump.
Eventually, a lot of these courses were taking a bath financially and a corporation decided to take them over. They now own about 20 of these courses. What the corporation is doing is they've made a very unique business model for themselves.
The initiation fees have dramatically lowered and I only paid $300 for my initiation. Then the monthly fee is about $150. On top of that, every time I go out to play I get charged a green and cart fee, but that comes out to about $25 total. Still, this is very affordable for me.
But the cool think is that I can play any of the 20 courses. They make you designate a 'home course' and on the home course you can make a tee time 7 days in advance, but the other courses you can only make a tee time 3 days in advance.
Still, extremely affordable and gives golfers the chance to play different courses to give them some variety and if a course just punched the greens, the member can go somewhere else. And these are mostly well designed courses...a couple of Palmer designs, a DLIII design, Couples design, Nicklaus, etc.
The Atlanta Business Chronicle (although often inaccurate) did a story on how Atlanta courses are hurting, but they interviewed the President of the corporation that owns these courses and he said they are doing quite well.
And I believe him. The corporation is getting a TON of play right now and Atlanta is one of the hardest hit cities because of the economy.
I went to college in Myrtle Beach and talked to some friends still working down there and they claim they are hurting quite a bit. Then again, the courses in Myrtle won't lower their rates since they set them a year in advance.
I also hear the same thing from equipment manufacturers of how they won't lower their prices because they won't be able to get the prices back up again. I really think the golfing world needs to start thinking outside the box to make the game affordable again or they'll continue to be stuck in this quagmire. Fortunately, the corporation that owns the courses I'm a member at has shown how.
3JACK
Eventually, a lot of these courses were taking a bath financially and a corporation decided to take them over. They now own about 20 of these courses. What the corporation is doing is they've made a very unique business model for themselves.
The initiation fees have dramatically lowered and I only paid $300 for my initiation. Then the monthly fee is about $150. On top of that, every time I go out to play I get charged a green and cart fee, but that comes out to about $25 total. Still, this is very affordable for me.
But the cool think is that I can play any of the 20 courses. They make you designate a 'home course' and on the home course you can make a tee time 7 days in advance, but the other courses you can only make a tee time 3 days in advance.
Still, extremely affordable and gives golfers the chance to play different courses to give them some variety and if a course just punched the greens, the member can go somewhere else. And these are mostly well designed courses...a couple of Palmer designs, a DLIII design, Couples design, Nicklaus, etc.
The Atlanta Business Chronicle (although often inaccurate) did a story on how Atlanta courses are hurting, but they interviewed the President of the corporation that owns these courses and he said they are doing quite well.
And I believe him. The corporation is getting a TON of play right now and Atlanta is one of the hardest hit cities because of the economy.
I went to college in Myrtle Beach and talked to some friends still working down there and they claim they are hurting quite a bit. Then again, the courses in Myrtle won't lower their rates since they set them a year in advance.
I also hear the same thing from equipment manufacturers of how they won't lower their prices because they won't be able to get the prices back up again. I really think the golfing world needs to start thinking outside the box to make the game affordable again or they'll continue to be stuck in this quagmire. Fortunately, the corporation that owns the courses I'm a member at has shown how.
3JACK
Matt 4-L
New
Quality of greens!!!!!!! Any course can have a nice set of greens if they take the time or hire someone who knows how to take care of them properly. I will not return to a course that has poor greens, there is nothing more frustrating then playing a course with shabby greens, who wants to have the ball hopping and jumping all over the place on a green. Roll'em and top dress'em.
softconsult
New
"Any course can have a nice set of greens if they take the time or hire someone who knows how to take care of them properly."
Generally the words "any', and "all" ring untrue. Actually, I think you will agree that there are realities that could get in the way of quality greens.
What if the greens were not constructed correctly and you can't afford to rebuild them? What if the type of grass decision is wrong? What if disease strikes? What if the P&L won't support a quality Superintendent? What if it can and you hire a great guy on paper that turns out to be not so great? What if your the guy mowing the greens drops the deck and gouges the green? What if you simply decide that for your ordinary customer, less than perfect greens are OK?
Just my 2 cents worth.
PS: I too avoid courses with lousy greens.
Generally the words "any', and "all" ring untrue. Actually, I think you will agree that there are realities that could get in the way of quality greens.
What if the greens were not constructed correctly and you can't afford to rebuild them? What if the type of grass decision is wrong? What if disease strikes? What if the P&L won't support a quality Superintendent? What if it can and you hire a great guy on paper that turns out to be not so great? What if your the guy mowing the greens drops the deck and gouges the green? What if you simply decide that for your ordinary customer, less than perfect greens are OK?
Just my 2 cents worth.
PS: I too avoid courses with lousy greens.
Matt 4-L
New
You missed the word "can", you just listed reason why some don't, even with poorly constructed greens an excellent super can still make them decent greens. Take Oakmont for example, when Fownes first built the greens he only put 6 inches of topsoil over top of clay soil, not much drainage, but he also sloped them to shed water, the turf can always be lifted to reshape if necessary or trees cut down to give more air circulation or more sunlight, don't under estimate a good super. I would bet the majority of poor quality greens courses don't even have an educated turf manager on staff.
softconsult
New
Whatcha think the Greens Superintendent at Oakmont makes? 150K? I'm sure Greens Superintendents follow the Bell Curve in terms of skill sets.
The point I was trying to get across was that while it may be theoretically possible that any course can achieve excellent greens, there are realities that make this improbable. I listed some of the realities as "What If's". Every if has an otherwise.
The point I was trying to get across was that while it may be theoretically possible that any course can achieve excellent greens, there are realities that make this improbable. I listed some of the realities as "What If's". Every if has an otherwise.
Matt 4-L
New
The point I am trying to make is there are lots of young turf managers fresh out of college looking for a start and there are lots of courses with nobody on staff who knows something about turf management. For example, we have a nice 9 hole Arthur Hills design course close by and it is a nice tree lined course, it had really nice greens and was a pleasure to play. The guy who owned it wanted out of the business and sold it to a guy who always wanted to own a golf course. Three years later the greens are some of the worst I have seen, the new guy knows absolutely nothing about taking care of greens. The thatch build up is getting so bad and he has fungus all over his greens, the greens need to be punched and top dressed and he needs to be putting down fungicide. Honestly he needs to top dress lightly every week or two for awhile to get the greens back in shape. My point being is there are ways to inexpensively get some decent greens…My brother and I almost bought a course a couple of years ago but we ran the numbers and didn’t like the way the fuel prices were heading and the way the economy was going. I am glad we didn’t buy then, the way things are heading now it might be time to buy one, believe me there is going to be lots for sale cheap, soon.
I think I may be the only ground crew (part time for 11 years) on the forum. Short story, the city owes two golf courses, both courses went thru pros every other year, the superintendents were union and basically could care less about speed of greens as long as they were green (awwww!). Two years ago city leased the course out to the currently pro and new motived sup -both courses have never looked better---- with half the staff! Point- the cost of chemicals, gas, diesel, manpower, top dressing, equipment, not to mention irrigation something may have to give if revenue goes down.
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