long irons

[dsmith2296]

Been applying Brian's theories well and dialing 7-PW in like a champ, but dropped to 3-iron off the turf today and was thinning and no nice divots. Mechanically, what is it about these longers clubs that could cause this for me?

DS

 

[EdZ]

I suspect some will disagree with this.... but too much axis tilt combined with too much bend in the right wrist, as compared to setup - thin shots.

The root cause - moving the base of the spine/neck too far down, usually caused by too much hip slide on the downswing.

Yes, there are advantages to letting the right knee straighten in the backswing, but what you describe is one of the disadvantages.

Try to stablize the right knee flex, and at the very least, the angle of the leg - it will help you from getting the 'hub' too far back and down. Focusing on the right arm extention should also show you that you have been moving back and down too much. With the short irons, you can get away with this, by taking bigger divots - the long irons force you to adjust before you slam the club deep into the turf - hence, thin shots

 

[dsmith2296]

Ok, trying to get the concepts of "axis tilt" down better to apply this. Dorky way to ask- but use 3-dimensional space to explain this using, say, the target line as X1 & X2 (X1 is toward target, X2 is behind ball), a line perpendicular to that is Y1 to Y2 (your rear points to Y1 and your belly points to Y2), and a line going staight from the earth to space as Z1 to Z2 (Z1 is the earth and Z2 is the heavens). Do you mean tilting the axis toward X2 or toward Y2? Does 'back and down' mean toward Z1 and X2? Sorry for the confusing request to explain this in this way, but that's the best way I can pose the question.

 

[EdZ]

Axis tilt is:

a) the turning of your shoulders perpendicular to the spine
b) the change in angle of your spine towards a more horizontal/less verticle relationship to the ground than at setup by moving the base of the spine forward and/or top of spine back/down

so while your shoulders/spine are moving like a "T", the bottom of the "T" is moving forward from basically "|" to more "/" (although at setup, you are a bit tilted not exactly "|"

combine those two images, and there is axis tilt

This is the description found in Dante's "4 Magic Moves" if you want more of a reference (a very solid book, well worth a read)

 

[dsmith2296]

I try to keep my knees ever-so-slightly flexed, but I bend over pretty far at the hips and I have a classic neutral grip. Because of those factors I do not believe that I have much axis tilt to begin with. Should I? While analyzing all of this in the mirror after your response I discovered that for some reason with the longer clubs I bent me knees too much. Could that be the culprit? What would the consequence of too much knee flex be?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Question: Were the divots thin or were you hitting the ball very thin? Having very shallow divots with long irons isn't uncommon

 

[dsmith2296]

I was "picking" the ball of the turf--even though I was trying to hit down.

 

[DivotDelight]

I wonder if it just a matter of aiming point. I got the same problems also. With a one ball position, one is supposed to move the aiming point further back from the ball, and for multible ball positions, one is supposed to move the ball forward progressively while maintaining the same aiming point. Longer irons need longer time to close both because of length of club and also the sweet spot is located further back of the club head in shorter irons. The sweetspot thing is explained in TGM in more detail.

I have been using the inside corner of the ball for all my irons with multiple ball positions. I believe I am supposed to keep the aiming point in the same place on the delivery line. Not sure if the target line can be used as an equivalent. Hard to look at one spot while the ball is somewhere else. Must be some kind of training regimen for gradually performing this.

 

[EdZ]

Too much (inconsistent) knee flex can lead to this, yes - you want your knees 'unlocked' but not really intentionally 'flexed' beyond that needed for comfortable balance at address. Too much flex, and you will tend to move as described in my first post, hub moves back/down and the right arm can't extend properly without a big fat shot, so you lift, chicken wing a bit, and hit it thin.

Right hand/arm only chip shots with a 4 or 5 iron, keeping the right wrist angle, would be a good drill for you - feel the right arm extend fully through the shot

 

[Brian Manzella]

Darby,

You need to "shoot the tube" more.

 

[EdZ]

Interesting image for getting more on plane Brian