Longitudional vs Radial Acceleration

[Michael Jacobs]

Brian, when we were at summit , we were talking a lot about the different types - Longitudional vs Radial
I used the bottle of water description - water shooting down the mouth as opposed to out the side in my talk
The discussion was in a swinging that in order to keep the club "up the left arm longer" {the bottom of the circle being more elliptical - that there must be some force across the shaft} I had always felt it was the pivot that made it more elliptical at bottom and that force was enough - but I know that there has been some research on that subject ----- Well, that was where we left off - If you can be so kind - if you could define what your thoughts are:

If you already discussed this on the site then I must of missed it, please just direct me there ---- Thanks!

Your Pal,
MJ

 

[mandrin]

......The discussion was in a swinging that in order to keep the club "up the left arm longer" {the bottom of the circle being more elliptical - that there must be some force across the shaft} I had always felt it was the pivot that made it more elliptical at bottom and that force was enough .....

Michael,

Various ways to keep the club "up the left arm longer" -

-1- Linear force exerted by straightening trail arm.

-2- Torque exerted by shoulder(s).

-3- Small retaining torque exerted by wrist(s).

A small retaining wrist torque, probably a bit counterintuitive, will not necessarily reduce clubhead speed at impact, but helps getting the hands a bit past the ball before impact.

 

[tongzilla]

Michael,

Various ways to keep the club "up the left arm longer" -

-1- Linear force exerted by straightening trail arm.

-2- Torque exerted by shoulder(s).

-3- Small retaining torque exerted by wrist(s).

A small retaining wrist torque, probably a bit counterintuitive, will not necessarily reduce clubhead speed at impact, but helps getting the hands a bit past the ball before impact.

mandrin, how does one APPLY -3- above? Should the golfer try to 'hold on' so to speak?

 

[Michael Jacobs]

Mandrin,
How about Hip Action - True Throwout action from the core for a swinger

 

[mandrin]

mandrin, how does one APPLY -3- above? Should the golfer try to 'hold on' so to speak?

tongzilla,

Yes, indeed, like pulling with the two middle fingers of the trail hand against the resistance of the thumb of the lead hand, in opposition.

I have put my old faithful two segment model to work to quantify a bit this wrist torque aspect of the swing. Have a look here.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

tongzilla,

Yes, indeed, like pulling with the two middle fingers of the trail hand against the resistance of the thumb of the lead hand, in opposition.

I have put my old faithful two segment model to work to quantify a bit this wrist torque aspect of the swing. Have a look here.

FINALLY, YES! YES!

I understand something Mandrin has created for us! Whoo, i feel smarter already.

edit:

i just re-read my reply and it sounds like i'm being sarcastic. I'm not! I just feel so inferior sometimes cuz i can't understand Mandrin's analyses, but FINALLY i get one!

 

[mandrin]

Mandrin,
How about Hip Action - True Throwout action from the core for a swinger

Michael,

Hip action, when the body does not have detrimental slack, immediately translates into a shoulder torque.

I have put some information together witch you might find useful.

 

[golfbulldog]

Thanks

First reading sounds very good - thanks Mandrin - you are very industrious!! The stuff you put together may take some time for us to digest but no danger from "cranium explosion" on this one!

In plain English...is this right?... WHilst trying to actively retain left wrist cock ( using the wrist torque you describe) you actually decrease the efficiency of the kinetic chain ( ie. you do more work for the same clubhead speed)... hence not very good machine...the only benefit of this is that we get to maintain a flat left wrist for longer into post impact positions...

If we want the most efficient swing we need very responsive wrists which just "permit release" rather than try to delay it? Right??

If this right then it is very like Greg McHatton teaches and swings...he likes wrists to be so supple that if he lifts your club at address then the arms stay still...you have to be very supple wrists for this!!

 

[Leozevo]

Thanks

Thank you Mandrin for bringing forth the name of Paul Bertholy in your answer. Paul Bertholy and Homer Kelley were ahead of their time. I was fortunate to listen to Paul Bertholy criticize Jack Grout in person in Greenville, SC at teaching seminar in 1977. Being an AI now I totally understand Paul's and Homer's messages.

 

[puttmad]

...

In plain English...is this right?... WHilst trying to actively retain left wrist cock ( using the wrist torque you describe) you actually decrease the efficiency of the kinetic chain ( ie. you do more work for the same clubhead speed)...

Or, "the same work for less clubhead speed" which is probably the case for most people who try to use it..

hence not very good machine...the only benefit of this is that we get to maintain a flat left wrist for longer into post impact positions...

The same benefit can be obtained without "holding the release" by simply moving the hands fast enough to stay in front of the clubhead

If we want the most efficient swing we need very responsive wrists which just "permit release" rather than try to delay it? Right??

Change "responsive" to "relaxed"...

 

[golfbulldog]

Change "responsive" to "relaxed"...

sounds similar to me!

 

[mandrin]

First reading sounds very good - thanks Mandrin - you are very industrious!! The stuff you put together may take some time for us to digest but no danger from "cranium explosion" on this one!

In plain English...is this right?... WHilst trying to actively retain left wrist cock ( using the wrist torque you describe) you actually decrease the efficiency of the kinetic chain ( ie. you do more work for the same clubhead speed)... hence not very good machine...the only benefit of this is that we get to maintain a flat left wrist for longer into post impact positions...

If we want the most efficient swing we need very responsive wrists which just "permit release" rather than try to delay it? Right??

If this right then it is very like Greg McHatton teaches and swings...he likes wrists to be so supple that if he lifts your club at address then the arms stay still...you have to be very supple wrists for this!!

golfbulldog,

The efficiency of the swing, in our little math model, is determined by the arms slowing down somewhat, quite early in the downswing, however for a real golfer this goes completely unnoticed, feel wise.

Hence not ‘wrist torque’ but primarily ‘shoulder torque’ affecting efficiency. A retaining wrist torque mainly affects impact alignments but not energy efficiency. Someone really cranking on the power through impact is not using his efforts in an efficient manner even if has an excellent swing is otherwise.

Your reference to Greg McHatton, to me is more showing the intricate complex relation between feel and real. Using very relaxed wrists like spaghetti likely induces a relaxed readiness in all of the muscles. It also produces much more dynamic recoil drag at the transition.

It is easy to do your own experiments. Swing with spaghetti like wrists and with a retaining torque, but otherwise same swing, and measure clubhead speed. Each golfer is a kingdom to himself.

The most efficient swing is determined by optimal sequencing of the various body parts from the ground up. Each slowing down at the appropriate time to transfer some of its energy.

 

[golfbulldog]

thank you, Mandrin - will try little experiment with pasta...

 

[mandrin]

The same benefit can be obtained without "holding the release" by simply moving the hands fast enough to stay in front of the clubhead

puttmad,

I agree totally with the feel value associated with “simply moving the hands fast enough to stay in front of the clubhead”. However the hands just can’t move by themselves. The torque to move the hands is produced by muscles in the arms/shoulders.

 

[mandrin]

FINALLY, YES! YES!

I understand something Mandrin has created for us! Whoo, i feel smarter already.

edit:

i just re-read my reply and it sounds like i'm being sarcastic. I'm not! I just feel so inferior sometimes cuz i can't understand Mandrin's analyses, but FINALLY i get one!

Jim,

Thanks for your spontaneous exuberant reaction. I do appreciate since effort goes into these posts.

 

[puttmad]

...

puttmad,

I agree totally with the feel value associated with “simply moving the hands fast enough to stay in front of the clubhead”. However the hands just can’t move by themselves. The torque to move the hands is produced by muscles in the arms/shoulders.

Yes, that's taken as a given Mandarin..as is the fact that the shouders provide their torque with the assistance of the muscles of the torso and the other six levers (hip, knee and ankle joints)..

 

[Brian Manzella]

For Free.

Brian, when we were at summit , we were talking a lot about the different types - Longitudional vs Radial
I used the bottle of water description - water shooting down the mouth as opposed to out the side in my talk
The discussion was in a swinging that in order to keep the club "up the left arm longer" {the bottom of the circle being more elliptical - that there must be some force across the shaft} I had always felt it was the pivot that made it more elliptical at bottom and that force was enough - but I know that there has been some research on that subject ----- Well, that was where we left off - If you can be so kind - if you could define what your thoughts are:

If you already discussed this on the site then I must of missed it, please just direct me there ---- Thanks!

Your Pal,
MJ

It is my current contention, that if you JUST swing the club, the shaft will be behind your left arm, catch up with your left arm at some point, and then pass your left arm.

It wont:

1. Stay up your left arm for any amount of time.

and

2. Full-Roll, ala Ernie Els or Ben Doyle, or even Tiger Woods 2000!

For the left arm to roll—anything like we think roll is—you need to CREATE that roll from the arm, hand, or wherever.

For the club to stay up your left arm, you need either force across the shaft, or wrist torque ala Mandrin—the semi frozen wrist (either one) or a force from the wrist.

I brought it up at the TGM Summit "Manziposium" to make people think.

 

[mb6606]

"I have put my old faithful two segment model to work to quantify a bit this wrist torque aspect of the swing. Have a look here."

Mandrin,
The model looks great for swinging a golf shaft. What are the addtional forces when you apply the clubhead to the model? The clubhead can open and close in a real golf swing.
Thanks

 

[golfbulldog]

"Search for the Perfect Swing" provides some great photos of 2 single figure players who keep the club up the left arm for a long time!!

Alec Wilmot ( 8 handicap) and Bobby Reid ( 4 handicap )

They do not use any right hand to apply force across the shaft...

These guys could play...

Need to explain how they do it... left wrist torque??




I do not know the nature of their amputation, how long-standing etc but there must be similar photos of more recent amputees with similar alignments past impact.

Notice how their left arm and shaft does not bend as the pendulum model diagram predicts...

These guys are similar to the Ping-man machine but can apply left wrist torque... maybe that is the difference?

 

[puttmad]

Notice how their left arm and shaft does not bend as the pendulum model diagram predicts...

That's because they don't need to cater for the right hand being on the club, which is accomodated for by a two handed golfer by bending the left elbow.

These guys don't need to bend the left elbow to shorten the radius, hence no pendulum...