Low Handicapper - Massively Shutting Down Face at Impact - Advice?

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Real quick background - I've been playing a little over three years but practice daily - index down to 3.5 but over the past several months I've been battling a bad hook. It used to be a mix of pushes and hooks but now it's just hooks, pull hooks, occasional straight ball. I used to have pretty darn good ballstriking stats and weak short game and putting. Now I rely on short game and putting to get me out of all kinds of bad situations. Swing speed is good - about 115 mph with driver and 7-iron distance around 185-190 yards. Misses are off the planet.

I'd been assuming it was a PATH issue all along and have worked hard on NHA pattern as well as picking up several other anti-hook swing left nuggets. As a side benefit, my short game improved dramatically because I was definitely not swinging left enough on short shots and other than a low running short game shot I didn't have much to work with. Now I can hit a variety of good shots with wedges. However, the hooks on full swings (irons and woods) got nastier and nastier.

Prior to spending some time on the Trackman and also seeing myself rope hooking down to 8-iron with a divot that is slightly left, I started to wonder if in fact my path was the culprit. In fact, now with a much more out-to-in path, if I get the face closed to path the results are two fairways to the left. For me it's not path... (actually it's path to the extent that my face is too far left of path). I would prefer to hit a fade since I've grown to despise any right to left movement.

ANY ADVICE on clubface control "feels" and how to keep the face open?

I've heard about setting up with clubface open, but I think my face-closing action is too violent and I don't know if that's the best long-term fix.

Obviously I've tried "holding off" the release but as you can tell I must not be doing it correctly. In looking at the club and release indoors in slow motion, it seems like if I can feel the left hand stay ahead of the right hand through impact, that would delay the action that is producing my shut face.
 

Erik_K

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I like to feel, for a fade shot, that I set up open and my hands, through the impact area, are low. I am actually trying to 'hold' the face open through the shot.
 
Clubface is neutral to slightly open at top. I've also tried out Hogan's Life mag left wrist cup move at the top to open it a bit more. It's helped at times to delay the closing face, but like the Nicklaus tip of setting up with a the face open at address, they both serve to offset a massive closing going into the ball. Far be it from me to question Hogan and Nicklaus and certainly both methods go toward the goal of giving the club a chance at coming in more open. I'm just wondering if for me it's better to try and reduce the amount of closing action that's happening through the ball.

When I first started playing I was definitely swinging out to right field and needed the closing face to keep the ball on the fairways and greens by way of a draw. I would miss by overcooking the draw or pushing it right when I left it open in relation to path. Short game was adversely affected though because in my view a wedge game that has an in to out path is a real bad idea (at least for me). Low shots when face isn't open, and potential for some hosel action when the face is opened up. Now my path is much better throughout the bag (thanks Trackman and Flightscope) but the clubface closing action is still ingrained and deadly on full swings.
 
slightly open at the top and hitting it two fairways over to the left?

WHOA. Would like to see the swing if at all possible.
 
Two fairways is an exaggeration but there is definitely hook spin and the left rough is extremely familiar territory. Fade path and shut to the path is a bad way to play and yes it's possible to shut the face from slightly open at the top - I promise.
 
Two fairways is an exaggeration but there is definitely hook spin and the left rough is extremely familiar territory. Fade path and shut to the path is a bad way to play and yes it's possible to shut the face from slightly open at the top - I promise.

Yes it's possible. I've been there.

Is it possible that what is happening is that the face is open so your reaction is to flip it shut?
 
Yeah - certainly possible. One thing that's for sure - prior to Trackman and also seeing divots going left I really incorrectly assumed that the hook was a path issue. I spent 95% of the time trying to unwind around harder to the left (GJ), stay connected with left elbow (Ballard), keep left arm pinned across chest (Hardy and others), or a myriad of great suggestions from BManz on NHA 2.0. All these do a great job of getting underplane hooker who swings out to right to get the path going in a more healthy direction. However - for the hooker who fixes the path without addressing the clubface, which has typically got to be closing unless the player started out hitting pushes to the next county, the initial resulting pull hooks from leftward path and shut face are crazy.

Just the mere understanding of D Plane and how this happens is a big step forward. Perhaps naturally through adjustments on the range I can get the hand and wrist action under control. Like I said - I was thinking it was a path problem and in fact it's not at the moment.
 
I've worked on a lot of stuff but I stopped flipping when I changed my grip. Used to have a slightly strong grip but cupped my left wrist at the top and over rotated my left arm. I also raised up and slid so that I was so open at last parallel that I had to flip. I changed my grip to "Manzella neutral" and did some other stuff so at last parallel my clubface is just tipping toward the target line. Don't have to flip now and can apply force with my right hand and not hit it left.

There is a thread you might want to read if you haven't. http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/13147-sergio-garcia-tumble.html

Also, do you have any video of your swing? You should post some video if you can.
 
Where do you aim, and where do you play the ball from (middle, leftish)? How is your left hand grip? Is the club laid off after transition?
 
Where do you aim, and where do you play the ball from (middle, leftish)? How is your left hand grip? Is the club laid off after transition?

I line up slightly left of target and rotate my hips and trunk hard through the ball. Path is confirmed left (Trackman). Ball position off left ear (irons) and off middle of left foot (driver) - definitely not back in my stance on any shots other and some odd shot I need to hit under a tree. I will get an updated swing video and post it as soon as I can. Left hand grip is slightly strong. If possible I would prefer not to start tweaking/weakening the grip as a weaker grip (to me) actually produces makes things worse by making me feel like I need to really rotate the face coming down (worse results).

From some swing vids I have from a couple months ago I see a pretty steep move going back, and not really laid off.
 
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Swing Speed of 115, 7 Iron of 185-190 yards.

In your best estimate, where do you think your speed comes from?

If it's your arms, that could explain why the face feels like it "has" to turn over through impact. especially if you have a strongish grip and not much pivot.

Looking forward to seeing a video
 
Swing Speed of 115, 7 Iron of 185-190 yards.

In your best estimate, where do you think your speed comes from?

If it's your arms, that could explain why the face feels like it "has" to turn over through impact. especially if you have a strongish grip and not much pivot.

Looking forward to seeing a video

Vid coming... speed "feels" like it's coming from a lot of leverage against the shaft and pivot flinging the arm and club unit around like a speedboat making a turn pulling and firing a wakeboarder/waterskier around to the left. I definitely do feel like I'm firing my arms but I also don't feel like I "have to" turn over the face at impact. In fact if I try to hit a big power fade I get the feel that I'm actively holding the face open through the ball and firing, and when I get the face opened the correct amount it's an extremely long powerful fade ball flight that feels about as good as anything outside the bedroom - perhaps better :) !! I alternate between 300+ yard bombs and ridiculous low left snaps when it's not timed properly. 17th hole at my home course is a 560 yard par 5 (hard fairways and slightly downhill) and Friday I put driver to 198 yards with fade, 7 iron to five feet slight draw but ball was a couple inches above my feet. That same day I didn't get close to breaking 80 because I snapped the heck out of at least five tee shots and a handful more swings out of fairways and rough. By the second tee lately I'm putting a tee in the ground and trying to guess how much I have to hold the face open.

Vid soon! And THANKS for all the feedback and help - great community
 
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