Low Point of the Swing

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palmreader

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Hi all,

I have read in many places in this forum, Lynn Blake and Chuck Evans that the low point of the swing is opposite to the left shoulder (for a right-handed golfer). I have seen a drawing where Brian illustrates this. I have a problem understanding this concept. Please don't give me the short answer like "you wrong" or "you idiot". Can someone show me by a geometric means how the low point exists opposite to left shoulder? Has Homer Kelly said this in the yellow book?

I understand perfectly the swing circle and the center being the left shoulder. However, through out the swing the left shoulder moves in 3 dimensions (forward, down and upward, and lateral or horizontal). Assuming the radius of the swing does not change (i.e the length of the arm with flat left wrist + club shaft), try drawing little arcs when the swing center (i.e left shoulder) moves all over the place. I think the lowest point of the swing can be anywhere between the address position and the location opposite to left shoulder based on forward lean of the shaft, amount of right wrist bend, and the amount of lateral and vertical movement of the shoulder. Try drawing little arcs with the same radius but moving swing center, and you would know what I meant.

Because all the TGM experts are saying that the lowest point is opposite to left shoulder, it must be true, but I have hard time visualizing it. Any explanation would be appreciated, but just don't draw one circle with fixed center at the shoulder location. Thanks in advance.
 
mgjordan

mgjordan

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You're right, the low point CAN be anywhere, however, it can ONLY be under the left shoulder with proper geometry. Low point is always under the left shoulder if the left wrist is flat and uncocked. If you bend the left wrist, low point can be well back of the left shoulder and if you arch the left wrist, low point can be a little forward. Brian mashes the ball as well as anyone and has a little arch like Tevino...I bet his low point is slightly forward of his left shoulder. Average hackers have to play the ball way back in their stance because they flip and move low point way back.

If the left wrist if flat and uncocked, it doesn't matter how the left shoulder moves. The flat and uncocked left wrist makes the left arm longest when it's directly under the center.
 
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palmreader

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Mathew, Thanks for the refernce. I guess I can live with that short answer (grin....).

Per 2-H, "Variation in Right Shoulder location will vary the Left Shoulder location at Impact and, consequently, THE LOW POINT LOCATION as well as the Angle of Approach (2-N)" I am assuming that this imply the low point can be anywhere.

MJJordan, Thanks for attemting to clear the fog, I am afraid I still do not see this. You said "..the left arm longest when it's directly under the center.." I am bit confused with this statement. The length of the left arm is ...well... the length of the left arm, it could not be any longer or shorter (can be short if you bend it at elbows). If the center of rotation (i.e shoulder joint) moves higher than the club head, there is no way the lowest point would be directly under the center.

I did this little test to visulaize motion of the club head. place the club head on the ground directly in front of your right foot and hold the handle with straight left arm and flat left wrist. Now with a stationary head (because your shoulder rotate about the spine during golf swing), move the left shoulder as in a golf swing and bring it higher. You would see that the club head come off the ground clearly showing low point is where you started rather than under the left shoulder. This is not exacly what happen during a golf swing due to bent right wrist and forward lean of the club shaft, but because the shoulder joint move upward, the low point does not have to be under the left shoulder. I beleive one need to experiment with the flat left wrist, bent right wrist and with the angle of approach, to find the exact low point for his or her own swing for a given club, and place the ball slightly behind it (because the impact plane line and the low-point plane lines is different). I am not good at drawings, otherwise, one can geometrically constrcut the sequences of the paths of shoulder and the path of club head. I beleive if one traces the club head from top of back swing to the top of followthrough, it moves rather on a elliptical curve.

Sorry for the long post.
 
mgjordan

mgjordan

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"MJJordan, Thanks for attemting to clear the fog, I am afraid I still do not see this. You said "..the left arm longest when it's directly under the center.." I am bit confused with this statement. The length of the left arm is ...well... the length of the left arm, it could not be any longer or shorter (can be short if you bend it at elbows). If the center of rotation (i.e shoulder joint) moves higher than the club head, there is no way the lowest point would be directly under the center."

Take a flat and uncocked left wrist and hang your left arm directly below the shoulder. Note where it is in relation to the ground. Now, move your left arm left or right. It will move up. The left arm moves in a circle around the left shoulder and when you move it left or right, it travels up and down it's arc. Now try it with a club. Rest the sole of the club just on the ground with a flat and uncocked left wrist. Now move the left arm left or right. The club will always raise up off the ground. If you just sole it under the shoulder socket, it can never get any lower than that point.
 
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palmreader

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quote:Originally posted by mgjordan



Take a flat and uncocked left wrist and hang your left arm directly below the shoulder. Note where it is in relation to the ground. Now, move your left arm left or right. It will move up. The left arm moves in a circle around the left shoulder and when you move it left or right, it travels up and down it's arc. Now try it with a club. Rest the sole of the club just on the ground with a flat and uncocked left wrist. Now move the left arm left or right. The club will always raise up off the ground. If you just sole it under the shoulder socket, it can never get any lower than that point.
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MJ Thanks a bunch. What you said is perfectly alright. When I move the arm left or right, the hand moves up and down in the arc with the lowest point right underneath the shoulder...because the shoulder is stationary. Now if I move my shoulder also up as in the golf swing, the lowest point of the arc is not underneth the shoulder, I think..... Well... Thanks again.
 
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palmreader

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MGJ,

Tried it. I don't get it. Look like I am nver going to understand this. Anyways, I got the other stuff (like flat left wrist, bent right wrist, shoulder turn take away, maintaingign lag correctly, and hitting the ball beautifully. However, I am placing the ball towards middle of my stance except for woods, 3 and 4 irons. I don't flip, and I know it because I have tic-tac. When I tried to place the ball more forward, I miss the ball. I guess I will stay with what works for me,and forget about the fact that low point being opposite to the shoulder.

Thanks for your input.

If anyone else has a suggestion please speak up. Look like you all understand this and I am the only dumbo.
 
Burner

Burner

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quote:Originally posted by palmreader

MGJ,

Tried it. I don't get it. Look like I am nver going to understand this. Anyways, I got the other stuff (like flat left wrist, bent right wrist, shoulder turn take away, maintaingign lag correctly, and hitting the ball beautifully. However, I am placing the ball towards middle of my stance except for woods, 3 and 4 irons. I don't flip, and I know it because I have tic-tac. When I tried to place the ball more forward, I miss the ball. I guess I will stay with what works for me,and forget about the fact that low point being opposite to the shoulder.

Thanks for your input.

If anyone else has a suggestion please speak up. Look like you all understand this and I am the only dumbo.
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Visualise the letter D</u> for a crude example - you are standing on the underscore line. The straight line is the left arm and clubshaft. The curved line is the backswing.

The club goes up and comes down the curved line to low point at the base of the straight line. From thereon in it goes up (in a mirror image of the letter D, to the finish.
 
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TGMfan

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Palmreader,

I think I understand what you're saying, but that raises two questions for you:

(a) Why is your left shoulder moving upward at Impact, and

(b) Can you sustain the LOC while it's doing so?

Perhaps, if you use the Inclined Plane that the club is moving on as your frame of reference, there's less shoulder motion than you think.
 
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bullish

New
Here is how I came to understand this: The low point in the swing is described in terms of a static position which never actually occurs. It doesn't matter where your left shoulder is or in what direction it is traveling, when your left arm hangs directly below it, that's the low point(for that particular static position).

If your left arm were glued across your chest throughout the swing, the low point would occur as the left shoulder moved high on the downswing. If the left arm was in a cast sticking straight out to your left side, the low point would occur at the completion of the backswing(left shoulder low point).

Make sense?
 
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matt

New
Outside of the left shoulder is where the left arm will "hang the lowest" as mgjordan explained. The left shoulder is the center of the circle and the left arm is the radius. The sternum is the center of the body rotation.

By not swaying or bobbing and by keeping a stationary head throughout the stroke, the fact that your sternum "stays put" will precisely return your left shoulder to it's impact fix position. The low point will move around if YOU are moving all over the place, but if you stay steady low point will return to it's fix position. And since the ball should have been placed behind the outside of your left shoulder you will contact it on the downstroke and have a good chance at a correct three-dimensional impact.
 
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palmreader

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HI Burner, TGMFFan, Bullish, Berdieman, matt, MGJ, all. Thansk for the input. I am reading another topic in Brain Audio Answer section (Downswing). It seems like this topic had been discussed in gretare detail. So, I am going to read and understand that. Have seen Brain's movie on hitting down also. Still don't get it, but keep trying.

Berdieman, I have the flipper video (4 videos except the Never fear bunkers). They are all good and helped me to play better game.

Matt, what you said about the body rotaion about the sternum and the hand/club lever rotating about the left shoulder are all true. If the angle between the shoulder line and the lever system (i.e.hand and the club) stay without changing during the downswing, then the the club head will travel through a perfect circle. But i think that angle keep changing thus maing the club head travel in a less than perfect circle. Howeve by moving the right shoulder down and left shoulder up, and somehow maintain that angle to impact, the head on a circular path. I have to think more about this. I am trying draw this in plan elevation drawing and see if can make some conclusions.

My problem is that I hitting the ball well, but place the ball back in my stance even for 3 iron. Since start following TGM, I have gained perfectly stright ball tarjectory and about 30 yds on longer irons, and about 15 20 yds on short irons. I am compressing the ball well. I must be compensating for the ball placement by doing something else.

Burner, I did not understand the "D" example. I think your example assume stationary left shoulder.

TGMfan, left shoulder goes up because the right shoulder gos down (basically rotating). I did not understand your question about sustaining LOC (line of compression?).

I saw a post by Lyn Blake in the dwonswing thread that Impact fix disfenes the low point, and you must return to impact fix during downswing. This is the best explanation I saw so far. Now if the low point is beyound the impact fix position depend on how the shoulder moves beyound that point. If the shoulder moves up beyound the impact fix during downswing with the forard lean of the club shaft, I am not sure it is a must that low point be opposite to the left shoulder. I think I need to think about the gometry of the swing to understand this. I will let you all know if I clears this thing in my head. Sorry if there are any spelling mistakes.

Palmreader
 
Burner

Burner

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quote:Originally posted by Mathew

Read 2H... :D
Click to expand...
Matthew,

It may help Palmreader (and a host of other guys) if he (they) could see the "low point" signature picture that you use on Lynn's site.

Could you put it up here?
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Impact Fix does NOT define low point.

Really, the only thing that defines a patterns low point is that patterns low point.

Get it?

Otherwise...it's a crap shoot.

And as far as it goes, if anyone wants to TRY to get to low point WITH A FLAT LEFT WRIST before the left shoulder socket....go ahead.

Call me when you're done.
 
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