Manzella's Current Thoughts on Steep Shoulders on the Backswing

[GeoffDickson]

I have been struggling with inside takeway, getting underplane etc etc.I have had a lightbulb moment courtesy of Micheal Breed on Golf Fix (I know that will surprise many)...He had an almost throwaway line about about getting the left shoulder 'low' on the takeway which introduced me to the concept of shoulder plane...Mine was very flat and my efforts to steepen it have made an on-plane, one-piece takeway ALOT easier (with immediately better contact with the ball)...

I have copied this from the Manzella archives (2007). I am sure others will benefit from them

MANZELLA MATRIX TOP 10 WAYS TO STEEPEN YOUR SHOULDER TURN on the Backswing
1. Try to make your left shoulder pass under your left clavicle.
2. Keep you right elbow higher than your left.
3. Move your right hip away from the ball as the left shoulder moves toward it.
4. Keep your tailbone to the right of your neckbone.
5. HIGH RIGHT HIP going back (Big Hip Tilt).
6. Expand your ribs on your right side going back.
7. Feel like you add to your waist bend going back.
8. Try to stay off your right heel at the top.
9. Make a load for throwing motion you would if you were going to try to throw the ball between your legs.
10. Shadow Practice.

What is the current Manzellian view on flat or steep shoulder turn? What has changed since 2007? Is turning 90* to spine angle still the optimal?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Well....

Something that most folks maybe don't know about me, is how much I test everyone else's stuff.

Everyone's.....

So, I went through a lot of phases over the years BEHIND THE SCENES in the last 28 years. Some of the testing made it to the lesson tee, some didn't.

One of them that did was a "steeper shoulder turn" or what TGM calls a "rotated shoulder turn."

Like nearly ANYTHING else, it can work. I even developed a whole pattern around it called "Baby Fade." It had it's little spot on the Manzella Matrix....then something happened.

I bought a TrackMan.

A lot of stuff went by the wayside as I learned how to produce TOUR NUMBERS on almost any golfer.

One of them was a steeper shoulder turn. (Kevin Shields told me he knew I would dump it at some point).

Now, don't get me wrong, it can work, and it does work.

I just don't use it anymore.


Most of the that top 10 above was designed to keep the club from getting laid off, and I have a new 10 for that I'll try to do a little video on soon.

 

[jerry1967]

"One of them was a steeper shoulder turn. (Kevin Shields told me he knew I would dump it at some point)".

Ok how flat is flat?

 

[Brian Manzella]

...how flat is flat?

Basically, I just don't mess with a golfer's shoulder turn anymore.

A little set-up adjustment, some more hip turn (if needed), and the proper arm swing to the top with un-restricted shoulder complexes, get the job done 99% of the time.

 

[Todd Dugan]

I have a strong hunch on the plane of the shoulder turn..............I'd like to run it by an expert on human biomechanics...............it is that the shoulders can only turn perpendicular to that part of the spine that they are turning around. So with a steeper shoulder turn plane, that part of the spine has moved less right/more left, and visca versca.

 

[Dariusz J.]

it is that the shoulders can only turn perpendicular to that part of the spine that they are turning around

Shoulder girdle does not have direct hard structure connection with spine. Shoulder joints link to spine through scapulas and clavicles. Both ensure lots of various movements that can happen in the shoulder girdle, elevation and depression included.
Thus, it is very possible that the rear shoulder joint will be flatter in relation to spine (thoracic part of spine) while the lead one elevated at the top giving the overall look of too flat rear part (top part watching DTL) despite the intention is model perpendicularity of the movement of the girdle to the axis. Watch post-secret Hogan DTL where it is well visible - his arms are low enough at the top not to darken the picture.

Cheers

 

[Todd Dugan]

That makes sense, D. OK, so maybe the shoulders CAN move non-perpendicular to the spine, but I think most teachers agree that one should strive to turn the shoulders perpendicular to the spine. But depending on the tilt of the thoracic spine, the plane of the shoulder turn will vary. Tilt away from the target, flatter plane......"fixed" thoracic spine/ "fixed" head, a la SnT, steeper plane. In each case, the shoulders CAN be turning perpendicular to spine.

 

[Dariusz J.]

That makes sense, D. OK, so maybe the shoulders CAN move non-perpendicular to the spine, but I think most teachers agree that one should strive to turn the shoulders perpendicular to the spine. But depending on the tilt of the thoracic spine, the plane of the shoulder turn will vary. Tilt away from the target, flatter plane......"fixed" thoracic spine/ "fixed" head, a la SnT, steeper plane. In each case, the shoulders CAN be turning perpendicular to spine.

Definitely. One of golden rules of simple mechanics is movement of distal parts perpendicularily to the axis of rotation.

Cheers

 

[jerry1967]

Basically, I just don't mess with a golfer's shoulder turn anymore.

A little set-up adjustment, some more hip turn (if needed), and the proper arm swing to the top with un-restricted shoulder complexes, get the job done 99% of the time.

thank you

 

[hp12c]

Basically, I just don't mess with a golfer's shoulder turn anymore.

A little set-up adjustment, some more hip turn (if needed), and the proper arm swing to the top with un-restricted shoulder complexes, get the job done 99% of the time.

Bmanz u make it sound sooooo easy!!!! but professinals alway do, make it look and sound easy thats why you/they are pros!

 

[GeoffDickson]

Most of the that top 10 above was designed to keep the club from getting laid off, and I have a new 10 for that I'll try to do a little video on soon.

Thanks Brian...a few potential prompts for your video:

1. What is the difference between a a) flat, b) underplane and c) laid-off backswing?
2. The aim of the backswing is to get into the correct position at the top...what set-up adjustments can decrease the possibility of inside takeaway?...what is the role of the hips and shoulder rotation in the takeaway?....what is the proper armswing?
3. Should shoulders rotate at 90* to spine?
4. Is it essential to maintain spine angle and spine tilt throughout the swing?
5. Do line drawing programs have a role to play in identifying correct shoulder rotation?
6. If I place driver (or shaft or stick) across my chest and get into a good position on backswing, where would the shaft be pointing (relative to ball) at top of backswing?...would this be different for a short iron?

 

[94monarch]

Geoff- Im looking forward to hearing the answer on that question. On #3 Mike Bender seems to be a big proponent of that. it sounds good in theory, but never seems to fit on video.