Martin Hall talks about Chuck Evans & Ben Doyle
- Thread starter mb6606
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If you liked that check these out. I have never seen a better visual demonstration of what the hands do in a swing. Both 1 and 2 kick butt.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=martin+hall+tgm&search=Search
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=martin+hall+tgm&search=Search
KOC
New
A channel for TGM or something good to see.
I think the top video is embed from my chip. Here is my list of video clips related to TGM.
Payne Stewart & Chuck Cook
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unFuUIiGcyU
Sam Snead Squat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqnMvkSomkM
Sam Snead Head turn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxyfnYVkNws
Tiger's Flip Release? (Laid Swing)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HigCq2ucNvA
My son natural pivot (look at his right foot ^.^)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OvQMdFfqmg
or just my channel, http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=KOC
I think the top video is embed from my chip. Here is my list of video clips related to TGM.
Payne Stewart & Chuck Cook
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unFuUIiGcyU
Sam Snead Squat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqnMvkSomkM
Sam Snead Head turn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxyfnYVkNws
Tiger's Flip Release? (Laid Swing)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HigCq2ucNvA
My son natural pivot (look at his right foot ^.^)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OvQMdFfqmg
or just my channel, http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=KOC
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shortgamer
New
Payne had me laughing out loud. Great links
self-mastery
New
He does a great job teaching all of the essentials that pop instructors won't touch.
The average golfer has no clue how the hands should work in the golf swing.
Thanks KOC for uploading to youtube.
The average golfer has no clue how the hands should work in the golf swing.
Thanks KOC for uploading to youtube.
mandrin
New
Increasing carry by ‘pressure’ on the golf ball
Martin Hall and Chuck Winstead, in part 1, mention with emphasis that carry is determined by applying ‘pressure’ on the golf ball, in addition to clubhead speed, and hitting it square in the middle of the clubface. This idea is indeed very tenacious but has no scientific justification.
Very true, but...
Your contributions in debunking this concept are valuable indeed, and much appreciated by many, including this writer. However, I am not too disturbed by Hall and Winstead's use of the term and concept, however, fallacious. The image of "applying pressure" is probably a good one for the majority of hackers who watch the Golf Channel. It is also refreshing to see TGM concepts being shown on a mainstream program, and for attempting to edify the unwashed masses, I give them a "pass" on the incorrect usage and a "thumbs up" for the overall presentation.
Your contributions in debunking this concept are valuable indeed, and much appreciated by many, including this writer. However, I am not too disturbed by Hall and Winstead's use of the term and concept, however, fallacious. The image of "applying pressure" is probably a good one for the majority of hackers who watch the Golf Channel. It is also refreshing to see TGM concepts being shown on a mainstream program, and for attempting to edify the unwashed masses, I give them a "pass" on the incorrect usage and a "thumbs up" for the overall presentation.
The hinges though! What a great visualization for the majority of golfers. I tried to get my boss to watch it. His swing is the biggest flip in the world and we spend half the day looking for his ball as a result but he was too lazy.
I am not sure about the actual physics, or terms, as I am not a physics teacher, but the hinges were pure gold for the bulk of people I know.
mandrin
New
hiroshiro,
I can see your point, but one only can go a certain distance with such elastic arguments. In addition to ‘applying pressure’ there is also reference to storing/loading of energy in the back swing to be unloaded in the down swing.
The proponents of TGM like to refer to the ‘science’ as exposed in The Golfing Machine. Therefore one should expect arguments used to be somewhat valid and grounded in science. An Imperfect World - but Getting Better
I do not disagree with you, and in an ideal world all instructors would adhere to scientifically correct explanations. But the reality with TGM is that it is still considered by most people in the golf world to be some mysterious method employed by a cult-like group of worshippers. Either that, or it is known as the system that destroyed young phenom Bobby Clampett. The denizens of this board and others devoted to TGM know these to be false, but it is still the prevailing view of the great unwashed.
Exposure of the concepts by "accepted" instructors such as Martin Hall should go a long way in "legitimizing" TGM. As such, I applaud his efforts, even if he takes some artistic license with the concepts. Who would have ever thought that there would be an instructor on Golf Channel Academy with hinges stuck to his wrist? When else has the Golf Channel shown how the wrists really should work?
On a more detailed level, I suspect that the number of people who believe that the "heavy hit" is a myth are very few. Most ardent TGMers probably still believe it to be true.
I may be alone in my views, and if the prevailing opinion is that TGM principles should be disseminated only in their "pure" form, then it is incumbent upon someone to inform Martin Hall and others who may may make similar errors. Personally, I am just happy to see TGM getting "out there" and am willing to overlook the occasional factual faux pas.
hiroshiro,
I can see your point, but one only can go a certain distance with such elastic arguments. In addition to ‘applying pressure’ there is also reference to storing/loading of energy in the back swing to be unloaded in the down swing.
I do not disagree with you, and in an ideal world all instructors would adhere to scientifically correct explanations. But the reality with TGM is that it is still considered by most people in the golf world to be some mysterious method employed by a cult-like group of worshippers. Either that, or it is known as the system that destroyed young phenom Bobby Clampett. The denizens of this board and others devoted to TGM know these to be false, but it is still the prevailing view of the great unwashed.
Exposure of the concepts by "accepted" instructors such as Martin Hall should go a long way in "legitimizing" TGM. As such, I applaud his efforts, even if he takes some artistic license with the concepts. Who would have ever thought that there would be an instructor on Golf Channel Academy with hinges stuck to his wrist? When else has the Golf Channel shown how the wrists really should work?
On a more detailed level, I suspect that the number of people who believe that the "heavy hit" is a myth are very few. Most ardent TGMers probably still believe it to be true.
I may be alone in my views, and if the prevailing opinion is that TGM principles should be disseminated only in their "pure" form, then it is incumbent upon someone to inform Martin Hall and others who may may make similar errors. Personally, I am just happy to see TGM getting "out there" and am willing to overlook the occasional factual faux pas.
mandrin
New
hiroshiro,
I don’t think that Martin Hall takes some artistic license but very likely literally believes these concepts. The ideas of loading energy in the back swing and the ‘heavy hit’ are not exclusive to TGM but are an integral part of the history of golf. They are a solidly embedded into the mainstream of golf instruction.
Therefore, for a system clearly wanting to distinguish itself from convential golf instruction by being scientific in nature, better use correct scientific ideas, since it might , when getting eventually popular, and hence closely scrutinized, sabotage its credibility.
Using the correct information does not alter or weakens the golf instructions used in TGM. For instance, instead of loading storing/energy, a good back swing becomes then the optimal way to create space and time required for a dynamic down swing.
Energy is not created in the back swing, except for some minor potential gravitational energy. Kinetic energy is generated mainly in the early stage of the down swing due to work done by the golfer, and then subsequently hopefully optimally channeled into the clubhead at impact.
The Task Ahead
You make valid points.
The job then is to educate AIs on the proper science so they do not propagate falsehoods that may damage the credibility of TGM.
Who is willing to take up this task?
You make valid points.
The job then is to educate AIs on the proper science so they do not propagate falsehoods that may damage the credibility of TGM.
Who is willing to take up this task?
hiroshiro,
I can see your point, but one only can go a certain distance with such elastic arguments. In addition to ‘applying pressure’ there is also reference to storing/loading of energy in the back swing to be unloaded in the down swing.
Sounds pretty anal to me.
mandrin
New
Anal?
solarbear, you either don’t have TGM or have not read it. For your information let me contrast my simple straight forward arguments which the scientific prose used in TGM.
In the INTRODUCTION and mentioned as FUNDAMENTALS:
1-A. LAW All the laws operating in a Golf Stroke- Force and Motion, Geometry and Trigonometry, Materials and Structure, etc., etc., have been known since at least the days of Newton. No instructor, or player or congressman put these laws into anything. Nor can they or anyone else be exempted from compliance with them. Laws are the Modus Operandi of their Principle.
1-G. APPROACHING THE GAME -- G.O.L.F. is a game for thinkers, and as detailed as this book is, it still greatly dependent on thinking players. Therefore, it is very important that the player has an understanding of the laws of geometry, structure, force, motion, etc., to properly apply these Mechanics as the player's increased skill requires a tightening of tolerances of permissible deviations in execution. Why trust instinct when there is science.
It is obvious that Homer Kelley is clearly indicating that science is the supreme guide for golf with no exception or exemption. This therefore should also apply to Homer Kelley himself and his ideas expressed in The Golfing Machine.
Anal - term often used in reference to a person seen as overly worried about small details of form, style and etiquette.
solarbear, you either don’t have TGM or have not read it.
For your information let me contrast my simple straight forward arguments which the scientific prose used in TGM.In the INTRODUCTION and mentioned as FUNDAMENTALS:
1-A. LAW All the laws operating in a Golf Stroke- Force and Motion, Geometry and Trigonometry, Materials and Structure, etc., etc., have been known since at least the days of Newton. No instructor, or player or congressman put these laws into anything. Nor can they or anyone else be exempted from compliance with them. Laws are the Modus Operandi of their Principle.
1-G. APPROACHING THE GAME -- G.O.L.F. is a game for thinkers, and as detailed as this book is, it still greatly dependent on thinking players. Therefore, it is very important that the player has an understanding of the laws of geometry, structure, force, motion, etc., to properly apply these Mechanics as the player's increased skill requires a tightening of tolerances of permissible deviations in execution. Why trust instinct when there is science.
It is obvious that Homer Kelley is clearly indicating that science is the supreme guide for golf with no exception or exemption. This therefore should also apply to Homer Kelley himself and his ideas expressed in The Golfing Machine.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Mandrin,
I love ya man.
But this one is going to the "ice box."
You convinced me to consider the facts about impact, I went out and did some testing and researched it a lot, and totally agree with you and DID A PRESENTATION ON IT—AND WHY A CERTAIN KIND OF IMPACT 'FEELS" HEAVY—AT THIS YEARS TGM SUMMIT.
So....
That's that, and it is also why I don't like ANY LINKS to ANY OTHER CONTENT but mine.
If I say something stupid, I can deal with the noise and I can fix it. If someone else says something wrong, I'd rather watch grass grow than read this thread.
This ship has sailed...the heavy hit is a myth.....
NEXT!
I love ya man.
But this one is going to the "ice box."
You convinced me to consider the facts about impact, I went out and did some testing and researched it a lot, and totally agree with you and DID A PRESENTATION ON IT—AND WHY A CERTAIN KIND OF IMPACT 'FEELS" HEAVY—AT THIS YEARS TGM SUMMIT.
So....
That's that, and it is also why I don't like ANY LINKS to ANY OTHER CONTENT but mine.
If I say something stupid, I can deal with the noise and I can fix it. If someone else says something wrong, I'd rather watch grass grow than read this thread.
This ship has sailed...the heavy hit is a myth.....
NEXT!
solarbear, you either don’t have TGM or have not read it.
In the INTRODUCTION and mentioned as FUNDAMENTALS:
1-A. LAW All the laws operating in a Golf Stroke- Force and Motion, Geometry and Trigonometry, Materials and Structure, etc., etc., have been known since at least the days of Newton. No instructor, or player or congressman put these laws into anything. Nor can they or anyone else be exempted from compliance with them. Laws are the Modus Operandi of their Principle.
1-G. APPROACHING THE GAME -- G.O.L.F. is a game for thinkers, and as detailed as this book is, it still greatly dependent on thinking players. Therefore, it is very important that the player has an understanding of the laws of geometry, structure, force, motion, etc., to properly apply these Mechanics as the player's increased skill requires a tightening of tolerances of permissible deviations in execution. Why trust instinct when there is science.
It is obvious that Homer Kelley is clearly indicating that science is the supreme guide for golf with no exception or exemption. This therefore should also apply to Homer Kelley himself and his ideas expressed in The Golfing Machine.
This is my view of the piece. The context of the piece is a 20 min TV bit on what the hands can and can not do and he wanted to communicate the need to not flip and to get people hit down. I reckon he did all these things effectively and in clear english. Now whether his theory on loading and storing of power is right or wrong, well I am willing to cut him some slack, since he seemed to achieve his primary objective well enough.
I am not sure what Hall's whole take on the golf swing is. But he is pretty much the only person I have seen on TGC promoting anything that has to do with TGM, so rather than be picky I cut him some slack on some things.
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