Modern Research Thread

[rprevost]

"This modern research includes the D-Plane, which proves that the "Plane Line" does not provide for direct correlation to ball flight; findings by Jorgensen, Nesbit and Zick that show that to get beyond an 85% mathematical limit in power generation, the golfer must apply pulling and pushing during the same stroke different times; "hinge action" during impact will not change ball-flight perceptibly; the mathematical reality that proves that you cannot resist deceleration through impact, no matter how long a flat left wrist is held, and despite any impact body positioning; and the bio-mechanical reality that shows the practical implausibility of the two recommended patterns in the 6th and 7th editions."

Great article by BM on TGM today. I think I understand the D-plane stuff. The recent posts have covered it well. I think I understand the hinge action and deceleration resistance issues; because the club head contact with the ball is so incredibly brief there is not time for hinging or resistance to accomplish anything. But I don't understand the science behind the other two issues. Can someone could help me locate previous threads that would cover these topics:

1) the 85% limit in power generation. I think that i read somewhere recently in a post by BM that one begins to push once the shaft is vertical. I don't understand this because the ball has left the clubface by the time the shaft is vertical.

2) the bio-mechanical reality that shows the two patterns in the book implausible.

 

[lookingtolearn]

1) the 85% limit in power generation. I think that i read somewhere recently in a post by BM that one begins to push once the shaft is vertical. I don't understand this because the ball has left the clubface by the time the shaft is vertical.

The vertical position he is referring to is when the club is upside-down the last time before you hit the ball.

 

[rprevost]

What an idiot I am! I found the thread from earlier this year where BM talks about power generation, and I finally figured out what "the last time the shaft is vertical before impact" meant. Thanks for your help.

Is the full power stroke what would be, as I understand it, a 4-Barrel stroke?

 

[pecky987]

What an idiot I am! I found the thread from earlier this year where BM talks about power generation, and I finally figured out what "the last time the shaft is vertical before impact" meant. Thanks for your help.

Is the full power stroke what would be, as I understand it, a 4-Barrel stroke?

im not sure, but i think at a previous TGM summit aaron zick basicaly proved that a 4 barrel stroke WILL hit the ball further in ALL cases.

i believe that brian is talking about achieving the maximum power that the individual can. that may be a 4 barrel stroke, but with D-plane issues this may not be the most accurate, so another pattern is customised to produce long, straight shots

 

[mb6606]

im not sure, but i think at a previous TGM summit aaron zick basicaly proved that a 4 barrel stroke WILL hit the ball further in ALL cases.

i believe that brian is talking about achieving the maximum power that the individual can. that may be a 4 barrel stroke, but with D-plane issues this may not be the most accurate, so another pattern is customised to produce long, straight shots

Probably true you can hit it further with 4 Barrels - Homer knew this but at what cost in accuracy and consistency for the swinger? Homer knew you could hit the ball just as far without sustaining the lag - he says it in the book. Again at what cost to accuracy and consistency?
IMHO the average golfer who cannot over power a golf course should be concerned more about accuracy and consistency than distance.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Facts and Illusions.

Probably true you can hit it further with 4 Barrels - Homer knew this but at what cost in accuracy and consistency for the swinger? Homer knew you could hit the ball just as far without sustaining the lag - he says it in the book. Again at what cost to accuracy and consistency?
IMHO the average golfer who cannot over power a golf course should be concerned more about accuracy and consistency than distance.

The math that discovers the 85% limit of just pulling or just pushing the whole downswing is an Aaron Zick/Mandrin/Grober/Nesbit level. A little out of Homer's league.

He did a lot of good guessing on these types of things, but what I was talking about is really much simpler.

YOU CAN'T HIT A BALL A LICK JUST PUSHING OR JUST PULLING.

Folks have been on 3D machine and shaft stress measurement devices TRYING to "just swing" or "just hit."

They failed COMPLETELY.

(I was one of them).

The "get past the 85% limit to close to 100% swing" is one that uses a precise sequencing of force along the shaft and then force across it while some force along it still exist.

It has nothing to do with the fact there are NO PURE SWINGERS or PURE HITTERS.

Period.

End of story.

Now, if you can play better balancing water bottles on your head, or thinking you are doing something that you actually aren't doing, go ahead, do it.

I came up with a several patterns that ACTUALLY EXIST. "The Soft Draw Pattern is something that you can SEE many golfers doing (some from days gone by), just about to the tee. The NEVER HOOK AGAIN pattern is a real pattern, based on a REAL golfer.

The two patterns in the back of the 6th and 7th editions have never been reproduced in history, and if you measure the forces on the club NEVER WILL.

My story stands as written.

 

[mb6606]

Why can't you pull with both the left and right arms? Homer described drag loading as pulling a rope. If I were to attach a rope to a car and attempt to pull the car via the rope I would have success pulling with both the left and right arms together. A unified pulling action.
Here is a picture of Barry Bonds 37th HR from his record breaking 2001 season. The greatest most powerful HR hitter of all time.
[media]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/features/2001/bonds/images/large/hr_37.jpg[/media]
Clearly the right arm is still bent nearly 90 degrees yet the ball has left the bat. He can only be pulling with both arms. Pulling using the masisve rotor of his body with the left arm blasting off his chest.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I'm trying to help you...

Why can't you pull with both the left and right arms?

Absolutely, you can.

Homer described drag loading as pulling a rope.

85% power limit.

Period.

If I were to attach a rope to a car and attempt to pull the car via the rope I would have success pulling with both the left and right arms together. A unified pulling action.

Your physical equal could do the same, and apply PUSHING as well, and his car would win the race.

Here is a picture of Barry Bonds 37th HR from his record breaking 2001 season. The greatest most powerful HR hitter of all time.

Clearly the right arm is still bent nearly 90 degrees yet the ball has left the bat. He can only be pulling with both arms. Pulling using the masisve rotor of his body with the left arm blasting off his chest.

If Barry Bonds is not applying force across the bat with his trail arm, I'll buy you a round of golf a Pebble Beach.


Why in the WORLD would you think I haven't thought of all of this already???


?

 

[KOC]

Please treat this reply as a naive one…85% already higher than Moe’s 80% standard...

 

[mb6606]

Absolutely, you can.
If Barry Bonds is not applying force across the bat with his trail arm, I'll buy you a round of golf a Pebble Beach.
Why in the WORLD would you think I haven't thought of all of this already???
?

I question everything - like a student should. I agree Bond's has force across the bat with the right arn but I am not sure he is actually pushing. Regardless I think we are all looking for the ideal way to swing a golf club. Hunter Mahan and Tiger Woods are both successful but which is closer to the ideal swing?
BTW I would rather have a free lesson from you than a round at Pebble!

 

[thefuture37]

I question everything - like a student should. I agree Bond's has force across the bat with the right arn but I am not sure he is actually pushing. Regardless I think we are all looking for the ideal way to swing a golf club. Hunter Mahan and Tiger Woods are both successful but which is closer to the ideal swing?
BTW I would rather have a free lesson from you than a round at Pebble!

If Tiger had Mahan's swing for his driver he would never lose.