birdie_man
New
Does having a savage angle (what do u call that?...#3 Acc. Angle?) like Sergio give a person more clubhead speed.....
.....or no?
.....or no?
More angle = more speed?
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bantamben2
Banned
depends on if you can maintain it it is releasing it at the proper time that is more important. Also for distance control you want it to be the same amount of wristcock each time.
birdie_man
New
You got something there I think...
Cause I dunno....I can take practice swings that I'm sure have as much angle as Sergio.....with lots of speed.....and man u feel it.....just really that feeling of "maxing out".....you feel the shaft...etc.
And not that I swing slow with my normal swing (flat left wrist)....it's just that it seems there is something extra there. (in the bent l. wrist practice swings) Maybe it's just a feel....I dunno. It very well could be.
...
The thing is tho.....that I can't seem to get the clubface on the ball as well.
It's not something I've screwed around with a lot tho...I really have no desire as of now to go down that road and ditch my FLW.
Cause I dunno....I can take practice swings that I'm sure have as much angle as Sergio.....with lots of speed.....and man u feel it.....just really that feeling of "maxing out".....you feel the shaft...etc.
And not that I swing slow with my normal swing (flat left wrist)....it's just that it seems there is something extra there. (in the bent l. wrist practice swings) Maybe it's just a feel....I dunno. It very well could be.
...
The thing is tho.....that I can't seem to get the clubface on the ball as well.
It's not something I've screwed around with a lot tho...I really have no desire as of now to go down that road and ditch my FLW.
Mr Inconsistent
Banned
More lag angle should definitely increase clubhead speed but I think it will increase the spin rate too which might not be a good thing with the driver.
Sergio has a flat left wrist btw. But I don't understand how he gets that much angle like that.
Sergio has a flat left wrist btw. But I don't understand how he gets that much angle like that.
birdie_man
New
Does he throughout?? I always thought he went fr. Flat to Double-Cocked to Flat. (@ Impact)
Man....if he can do that with a Flat l. wrist he's rubber.
Man....if he can do that with a Flat l. wrist he's rubber.
Mr Inconsistent
Banned
I'm not positive, it's kind of hard to find pictures or video good enough to see on him. But he has a flat left wrist at the top at least.
bantamben2
Banned
he looks pretty flat to me. he gets that much lag by loading his right elbow a little late and getting it back to his side first thing on downswing as he shifts his weight left. I have found that from my old normal swing with a punch elbow and having a pitch elbow and retainining the lag i am about 30 yards longer with my driver. I hit most of my irons about the same but i feel like i am swinging much slower with little effort and still hitting my 8 iron 160
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
He has much less #3 accumulator angle than he used too. Brian used to have a video of him on this site with a mid iron and he looked like hogan.
Now if you see recent swing sequences he has much less.
Now if you see recent swing sequences he has much less.
bantamben2
Banned
yeah he used to float load alot more wich can be hard to handle consistently. the secret is just enough loading to sustain the lag to much makes putting the exact same loft on the club at impact more difficult to little you lose power
bantamben2
Banned
if you have a long thumb you can get more wristcock while still maintaining a flat wrist verse a short thumb
birdie_man
New
Agreed.
I've never known what the deal is with ppl and a short thumb....always has seemed awkward to me.
I've never known what the deal is with ppl and a short thumb....always has seemed awkward to me.
bantamben2
Banned
typically if people have stronger grips they seem to prefer short thumbs because they tend to have a bit of dorsey flexion going on, so the short thumb will keep that left arm clubshaft in check a little
Perfect Impact
New
I read a thing that Harry Vardon did and advocated, and frail as he was, he had a reputation for hitting the ball a long way and astonishing observers.
He did two things: he allowed his left elbow to bend at the top, creating a double lever IN the left arm the same as we all do when we chop wood.
The other thing was to allow his right palm to come OFF his left thumb at the top: he squeezed his right thumb and index finger to hold the club securely, but because his right wrist's range of motion (angle that it could bend back) was limited, as all of us also experience, he got a more powerful loadup angle at the top by letting his palm off the left thumb. It reconnected seamlessly in the downswing to apply ITs appropriate force to the left thumb, but it didn't impinge on his backswing wristcock for that very reason. AT THE SAME TIME the LEFT hand can ALSO hold the THUMB AND FOREFINGER tightly AND allow the little finger some slack at the top, BECAUSE THE FULCRUM OF THE CLUB THERE IS NOT THE LEFT WRIST BUT RATHER IT IS DOWN THE SHAFT ABOUT 5" FROM THE GRIPCAP WHERE THE TWO HANDS MEET at the left thumb and forefinger!
Of course this is radical sounding. But it happens to be the reality and one of the least recognized "secrets" of clubhead speed. Vardon did it, many golfers do it without realizing it is a big deal, and when you try it you might never ever consider swinging a golf club any other way.
He did two things: he allowed his left elbow to bend at the top, creating a double lever IN the left arm the same as we all do when we chop wood.
The other thing was to allow his right palm to come OFF his left thumb at the top: he squeezed his right thumb and index finger to hold the club securely, but because his right wrist's range of motion (angle that it could bend back) was limited, as all of us also experience, he got a more powerful loadup angle at the top by letting his palm off the left thumb. It reconnected seamlessly in the downswing to apply ITs appropriate force to the left thumb, but it didn't impinge on his backswing wristcock for that very reason. AT THE SAME TIME the LEFT hand can ALSO hold the THUMB AND FOREFINGER tightly AND allow the little finger some slack at the top, BECAUSE THE FULCRUM OF THE CLUB THERE IS NOT THE LEFT WRIST BUT RATHER IT IS DOWN THE SHAFT ABOUT 5" FROM THE GRIPCAP WHERE THE TWO HANDS MEET at the left thumb and forefinger!
Of course this is radical sounding. But it happens to be the reality and one of the least recognized "secrets" of clubhead speed. Vardon did it, many golfers do it without realizing it is a big deal, and when you try it you might never ever consider swinging a golf club any other way.
birdie_man
New
So....more angle....more speed?
I think there is logic in it.
(BUMP)
I think there is logic in it.
(BUMP)
Perfect Impact
New
I have just sketched two "models" with lines and arcs to portray two different "swings" in principle, each one at the "top" looking identical and beginning to move identically, but one produces throwaway powerless golf club head movement, and the other with the same amount of effort produces considerably more efficient clubhead speed. The only difference between the two is WHERE FORCE IS APPLIED. In the one, it is applied against the shaft - a pressure perpendicular to it (a danger for those who use the right index finger for that purpose). This moves the clubhead around the left hand - a lever whose fulcrum is the left wrist. (Both sketches presume the force moving the left ARM is identical.) The other sketch shows the force applied to move the left HAND -- IN THE DIRECTION OF ITS ARC AROUND THE LEFT SHOULDER -- which applies LENGTHWISE pull on the shaft, instead of sideways pressure. The angle of the force vector differs in the two sketches by 90 degrees.
In the first sketch, the clubhead passes the hands long before impact and decelerates in the last moments prior to it. At impact the clubhead and hand are both moving at about the same speed. In the second sketch, the release of the clubhead doesn't even BEGIN until much later, and WHEN it does it achieves a velocity of some 3 or 4 or 5 times that OF the left hand and it is acclerating and "catching up" as impact occurs.
Someone looking at the starting position in the sketches who does not know WHICH way to apply his exertion (invisible, of course) could produce either result, or a hybrid of the two, if he were not informed of WHAT PRODUCES CLUBHEAD SPEED.
Someone who truly understood the difference and therefor WAS exerting the lengthwise force against the shaft as in the second example would clearly have the advantage over someone who didn't know that. Again, what anyone EXERTS is not observable except after the fact from effects. THE EXERTIONS CAUSE THE EFFECTS. EFFECTS INTENDED CAN NOT BE CAUSED WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT TO EXERT AND HOW.
Form follows function. Function comes first. Knowing how force should be applied, not trying to copy positions.
In the first sketch, the clubhead passes the hands long before impact and decelerates in the last moments prior to it. At impact the clubhead and hand are both moving at about the same speed. In the second sketch, the release of the clubhead doesn't even BEGIN until much later, and WHEN it does it achieves a velocity of some 3 or 4 or 5 times that OF the left hand and it is acclerating and "catching up" as impact occurs.
Someone looking at the starting position in the sketches who does not know WHICH way to apply his exertion (invisible, of course) could produce either result, or a hybrid of the two, if he were not informed of WHAT PRODUCES CLUBHEAD SPEED.
Someone who truly understood the difference and therefor WAS exerting the lengthwise force against the shaft as in the second example would clearly have the advantage over someone who didn't know that. Again, what anyone EXERTS is not observable except after the fact from effects. THE EXERTIONS CAUSE THE EFFECTS. EFFECTS INTENDED CAN NOT BE CAUSED WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT TO EXERT AND HOW.
Form follows function. Function comes first. Knowing how force should be applied, not trying to copy positions.
Sonic_Doom
New
This is very interesting, is this lengthwise pull primarily related to clubhead speed? In other words, is this useful for shorter strokes?
Perfect Impact
New
Yes: even for putting. Of course shorter strokes start with much different angles than 90*. A putt has nearly 170 or 180*, or even more... The principle of "stroke" applies in that the head end is moved by the forward motion of the left hand: the head is "dragged" or pulled by the "pushing" or swinging of the hand along the target line. Chipping is similar except release is zeroed out usually to prevent fat shots and to allow distance control in the shoulders and by virtue of the amplitude of the stroke using a repeatable pace.
The club actually only gets "lengthwise" force if it is 90* from the direction of the hand (tangent to the arc of the hand). But the hand must always move the handle to move the head. Unless you wish to be a hitter.
There is no 2nd commandment that one must BE a swinger.
The club actually only gets "lengthwise" force if it is 90* from the direction of the hand (tangent to the arc of the hand). But the hand must always move the handle to move the head. Unless you wish to be a hitter.
There is no 2nd commandment that one must BE a swinger.
birdie_man
New
What do you think of all this now that you're back Brian?
Is more angle as big of a deal as it seems like....?
For example....would it add anything to Nicklaus' swing? (with all other things somehow being equal...)
Everyone oohs and ahhs at Sergio's swing...
Is more angle as big of a deal as it seems like....?
For example....would it add anything to Nicklaus' swing? (with all other things somehow being equal...)
Everyone oohs and ahhs at Sergio's swing...
Last edited:
Brian Manzella
Administrator
And again...
A thread lost in advertising....
I will AGAIN clear all of this up in two sentences:
If you have more ACCUMULATOR LAG you POTENTIALLY can hit it further.
But ONLY if this doesn't decrease your hand speed too much!!
A thread lost in advertising....
I will AGAIN clear all of this up in two sentences:
If you have more ACCUMULATOR LAG you POTENTIALLY can hit it further.
But ONLY if this doesn't decrease your hand speed too much!!
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