My Irons are Killing Me...

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I can't swing left enough with my irons. I hit 10 of 14 fairways in a round the other day (which isn't unusual), but managed to miss the green consistently with my irons. My short game is good enough that I can scramble and salvage a round but my frustration level is skyrocketing...

I can miss a green to the left or right with any iron right down to the L-wedge. Standing 90 yards from the green and not knowing if I'll hit the SURFACE is the pits. If it helps: I'm working on an NHA backswing, downswing and some flexion/extension in the follow-through. I'm going to spend some more time with the towel "plane-board" drill to move things more left-ward.

I'm definitely going to get a tune-up from Damon soon, but I can't get out there for another month or so. Any suggestions anyone might have that I could work on in the interim would be appreciated.
 
Hey Woodbridge,

Glad to know the good part of all this is that you're making it over to see Damon Lucas.

In the meantime, I learned something about symmetry from Brian you might try. I assume you have a great grip.

Standing, hold a club extended in front of you, halfway up the shaft the entire time.

Move the club to your left side so the grip extends behind you.

Move to your finish. No part of the club should touch your left side.

Start again at the left hip and just finish and hold several times.

Now, add the backswing to the right and then to the left and hold.

Your arms move the club to the left side of your body which means over your left hip.

Might be left enough and like chess, you plan the move ahead of time. Left enough.
 
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Thanks Rick - I think we met a few years ago at a Lake P. tour stop.

I have a clarifying question to the drill you're suggesting: is it performed on the "table top" plane/parallel to the ground?
 
You grip it halfway up the shaft at "tabletop", then move the club to your left side with relaxed forearms. It will fall to incline plane.
 
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You are always behind the shaft.

If you manipulate the shaft in any way, the top of the club will hit you.

That's all there is to it.
 
S

SteveT

Guest
Hello, Woody..... a personal question or two.... what is your height and weight, and even arm length?

What are your iron and driver club specs -- shaft lie, length, type.... are they flatter or more upright lies, or normal? Also how would you describe your swing "path or plane" orientation -- flat, upright?

I suspect your situation may also in part be due to your swing style... but only a hunch now.
 
SteveT - You never fail to deliver, so I'll play along (but won't post a swing of me in my skivvies)

Height: 6'2" Weight: 178

Clubs:
Irons: AP2 S300, Standard Length, Lie 2 down from Standard Titleist specs. (lie angle was a recent change and the problem pre-dated that adjustment)
Driver: Callaway RAZRK Hawk Tour 45.5 S Flex Aldila RIP. 9.5 Degrees.

Swing Path: definitely inside out (previously measured 4-6 degrees w/6I on TM 2 years ago). Probably less now, because I experience less curvature - or maybe I just learned to match the face to path better...

Swing Orientation: Distinct Lift in Backswing, so upright..
 
S

SteveT

Guest
OMG, Woody ... you have a looong memory... did I traumatize you with my "show-all" suggestion, and that is the cause of your irons "hangup"...?! :D

Okay, now... here's my take on your iron dilemma .... short golfers tend to swing flat, while tall golfers tend to swing steep. Short golfers are good with their long clubs while tall golfers are good with their short clubs for obvious reasons. Short golfer have difficulty with short clubs while tall golfer are good with short clubs. You are good with your driver and have problems with your short irons... but you're not short in stature!!!

However, your clubs are fitted "flat" 2º down which suggests that your arm are gorilla long! Then you have a steep backswing which contradicts your flat irons unless your arms are gorilla long! I can't envisage your posture at address... upright or bent over spinal axis? See the problem (that would be clarified with a "skivvies" swing)?! :eek:

Many years ago, I read in one of those "golf my way" books, that tall golfers have a steep swing and are good with their short clubs but struggle with their driver... and vise versa for short golfers. Faldo was great with his irons but sucked with his driver, which incidentally was shaft shortened too.

Me? I'm like you.. 6'3" and 175#... with green dot PINGS and extended shafts. My short game from ~160 yards in is PGA .. while beyond that I can't break 100. Now understand that I started golf in my late 40's after tennis and b'ball.... so I'm stuck with my semi-scientific understanding of the golfswing. However, my iron divots (5-iron to lob wedge) are to the left, but my shots were straight straight straight... and I never knew why, prior to Brian's D-plane, and it was a constant puzzle as I tried but couldn't straighten out my divots... go figure!!!

So what can I tell you that is more objective than subjective? I think your long club swings are consistent, while you may be trying to adjust your short iron swings to shape your shots and you are unable to get the results you expect. What direction do your divots point?

Are you consciously trying to rotate the clubhead through impact for your short irons and can't maintain control? Before anybody can prescribe a solution for your situation, your problem must be first diagnosed. Agree?

How about this... find one of those PING demo 6-irons with a steep lie angle, like white dot, and test it out on grass. What I'm suggesting is that flat lie clubs are not conducive to short game control. It's more difficult to work the ball with upright lie irons too. Of course golf is a game of compensations and you could adapt to anything if you practiced it enough.
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Ok, i normally don't do this but SteveT i'm gonna have to blow you up because so much of the below is incorrect:

short golfers tend to swing flat, while tall golfers tend to swing steep. Short golfers are good with their long clubs while tall golfers are good with their short clubs for obvious reasons. Short golfer have difficulty with short clubs while tall golfer are good with short clubs. You are good with your driver and have problems with your short irons... but you're not short in stature!!!

Uh, no. All things being equal if you have the same length club and give a 38" 5 iron to a guy who is 5'5" versus the same 38" 5 iron to a guy who is 6'2" the the length of the club combined with the lie angle in the main contributor to steep/flat backswing, not the height itself. When a club is too long for you you will generally bend less from the waist and swing more around you and vice versa. So if you are short and always play with clubs much too long for you, you will probably develop a flatter back/down swing that leads to better play with longer clubs and vice versa for the tall guy but again, it's because they are playing the wrong length.

However, your clubs are fitted "flat" 2º down which suggests that your arm are gorilla long! Then you have a steep backswing which contradicts your flat irons unless your arms are gorilla long! I can't envisage your posture at address... upright or bent over spinal axis? See the problem (that would be clarified with a "skivvies" swing)?! :eek:

Again, bad assumption. Titleist has some of the most upright standard lie angles on the market. 5 iron standard lie angle for AP2 is 62* and 5 iron standard lie angle for Mizuno JPX-800 pro is 60.5*. So basically if you are a fairly good player who doesn't need giant upright lie angles for your open clubface issue you'd be 1.5* flat in the AP2's and standard in the Mizuno's with the same arm length.

What I'm suggesting is that flat lie clubs are not conducive to short game control. It's more difficult to work the ball with upright lie irons too. Of course golf is a game of compensations and you could adapt to anything if you practiced it enough.

Your lie angle should be what it should be for your swing based on a dynamic fitting; period. You end up where you end up and you can error 1* or so either way if you want to guard against hooking/slicing even.

Back to your regular scheduled programming.
 
Swing Path: definitely inside out (previously measured 4-6 degrees w/6I on TM 2 years ago). Probably less now, because I experience less curvature - or maybe I just learned to match the face to path better...

FWIW...This is the first thing I check when my irons go to crap. I still fight the tendency to swing to far right and underplane. Brian's drill in GOLF opened my eyes to how far underplane my natural pivot motion takes me. Feels over-the-top when I do the drill correctly.

You may or may not be to inside-out and/or underplane. But I think the two way miss is consistent with that.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I can't swing left enough with my irons. I hit 10 of 14 fairways in a round the other day (which isn't unusual), but managed to miss the green consistently with my irons. My short game is good enough that I can scramble and salvage a round but my frustration level is skyrocketing...

I can miss a green to the left or right with any iron right down to the L-wedge. Standing 90 yards from the green and not knowing if I'll hit the SURFACE is the pits. If it helps: I'm working on an NHA backswing, downswing and some flexion/extension in the follow-through. I'm going to spend some more time with the towel "plane-board" drill to move things more left-ward.

I'm definitely going to get a tune-up from Damon soon, but I can't get out there for another month or so. Any suggestions anyone might have that I could work on in the interim would be appreciated.

When you say you can't swing left enough, are you trying to swing the handle left (which could and usually does drag the face open and keep it below the hands)....or.....are you trying to steepen the shaft and "tumble" the head left?
 
When you say you can't swing left enough, are you trying to swing the handle left (which could and usually does drag the face open and keep it below the hands)....or.....are you trying to steepen the shaft and "tumble" the head left?

I am trying to tumble the head left but based on the results I'm getting, I'm not doing a very good job. I think I probably tug a bit in transition and immediately jack-knife the shaft and then have trouble squaring the face "consistently" from there. Hence lefts and rights?

SteveT - I had green dot Ping S59s that were 1/4" over standard prior to this set. If anything I had a steeper backswing and was more under plane with that set. I could kill them, but generally hooked them off the face of the planet. To be completely fair, I owned that set before I found this site and got to work with Damon. If I knew then, what I know now maybe the results would have been different? But IMHO: more an Indian issue and not the arrow...

Rick - I went to the range to take advantage of the weather in D.C. and I really liked the drill you gave me. It reinforced some of the ideas that Brian and Damon had given me in the past - I was really "showing my logo to the camera tower" at the finish ;) The drill helps me get into a better position on the backswing and into a better finish but I still found myself missing both ways.
 
Hey Woodbridge,

Glad to know the good part of all this is that you're making it over to see Damon Lucas.

In the meantime, I learned something about symmetry from Brian you might try.

Thanks for the drill Rick. I was wondering what kind of symmetry you were referring to here? I took a shot at the drill and whacked myself in the ribs.
 
Keep your chin up...

Living in Palm Springs, I would practice for at least 8 hours a day.

Milk crates full of balls.

Everything was a joy.

In no time, like many youthful things a shot goes awry. Joyless.

I figured, why fight it.

So, I would set up perfect.

I mean everything aligned.

Then right before I'd pull the trigger I'd pick a target 40 yards to the right and just take the whole show there.

Then 40 yards left.

High right.

Low left.

And on...

After a while the straight shot returned.

PS It returned 'cos I made it return.
 
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Keep your chin up...



So, I would set up perfect.

I mean everything aligned.

Then right before I'd pull the trigger I'd pick a target 40 yards to the right and just take the whole show there.

Then 40 yards left.

High right.

Low left.

And on...

After a while the straight shot returned.

PS It returned 'cos I made it return.

Wow sounds like where I am right now...except can get the straight ball only on occasion.
 
Thanks Rick. I dedicate the majority of my practice to my iron game since the results are so poor but I'm sure it will come around.

Lot's of ideas to work-on here, and I think I'm going to make "tumble, tumble, tumble" my golfing mantra.
 
Ok, i normally don't do this but SteveT i'm gonna have to blow you up

images



He blowed up reel goood.
 
S

SteveT

Guest
Now I'm really {{{MAD}}} so take this, JimK and drewy... :mad::mad::mad:

Ok, i normally don't do this but SteveT i'm gonna have to blow you up because so much of the below is incorrect:

Where am I "incorrect" since I'm just asking Woody to help better determine where his fault lies? Woody doesn't know what's wrong within himself, and all I did was give him some generalized suggestions. Meanwhile others are jumping in without even doing some due diligence to determine the exact cause of the problem.... but did you criticize them for their pomposity? NO.. you just picked on lil' ol' me!!!! :p

Uh, no. All things being equal if you have the same length club and give a 38" 5 iron to a guy who is 5'5" versus the same 38" 5 iron to a guy who is 6'2" the the length of the club combined with the lie angle in the main contributor to steep/flat backswing, not the height itself. When a club is too long for you you will generally bend less from the waist and swing more around you and vice versa. So if you are short and always play with clubs much too long for you, you will probably develop a flatter back/down swing that leads to better play with longer clubs and vice versa for the tall guy but again, it's because they are playing the wrong length.

Duuh, really?! Are you suggesting that Woody's irons are too short??!!!! Or are you just trying to poke holes in my generalized comments to "blow me up"?! :confused:

FYI, I depend on "LAWs of the Golf Swing", and the comments made in the PING Color Code Chart for my generalized explanations. What do you depend on besides your singular comments?!

Again, bad assumption. Titleist has some of the most upright standard lie angles on the market. 5 iron standard lie angle for AP2 is 62* and 5 iron standard lie angle for Mizuno JPX-800 pro is 60.5*. So basically if you are a fairly good player who doesn't need giant upright lie angles for your open clubface issue you'd be 1.5* flat in the AP2's and standard in the Mizuno's with the same arm length.

Are you suggesting that the Japanese club maker's lies are "standard"? Yes, I know that Mizuno, Yonex, others, tend to show flatter standard lies and even shorter shaft lengths than U.S. OEMs. Wonder why the Japanese standards are flatter and shorter than ours... duuuuh.

Your lie angle should be what it should be for your swing based on a dynamic fitting; period. You end up where you end up and you can error 1* or so either way if you want to guard against hooking/slicing even.

So you are suggesting that Woody's problems are not with his flatter, shorter clubs... but within his body and/or brain? Fine, but tell him that... NOT ME!!!!!!

HEY Woody... your clubs are okay according to JimK... so go look in a mirror, or even better show us a video of your faulty swing so he can evaluate your body and arms.... and don't forget to only wear your skivvies so that we can all see your beautiful boooody in action.... :rolleyes::cool:

drewy... if JimK wants to "blow me up" he'll have to get expert instructions from the girls who specialize in that sort of thing...:eek:
 
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