My most non-tugged, dynamically stable/balanced, zeroed-out mid-iron swing ever

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lia41985

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<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/AjFubB0_6BE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Have been doing a lot of work on my golf swing. Especially on the three mentioned areas of not tugging, achieving and maintaining dynamic stability and balance, and hitting completely straight balls. The big break through was working on the out toss which gave me so much more room. Way better ball flight as well as aesthetic improvements that were satisfying to achieve from a physical standpoint but totally secondary to the better ball striking. Re-watching Brian's "Ideas" video really opened some doors and I'm playing my best golf yet.
 
Congrats on your stronger play. That is a powerful looking swing. Did you pick up significant distance with your changes?
 

lia41985

New member
Jon,
Hitting the ball that straight and that far has been a new thing. I could hit it about as far but much more wild before (huge hooks or pushes from tugging, getting underneath it, stuck, and flipping to save it). Got rid of the excessive drag with a ton of out toss work and got the forward lean I needed to hit it as far as I wanted but with the face control I could only have dreamed of before.
 

hp12c

New
Dang Lia the clubhead is pointing at the ball on the backswing ala John Daly. Do u swing that way with all ur clubs? no wonder u tear the cover of that mofo!!!!!:D
 

Jared Willerson

Super Moderator
Good work lia.

This is an example of posting your swing and it being allowed to stay up. Lia is not asking for analysis or opinion, he is merely showing his progress. Which is great.

The reason I say this is because I have gotten a couple of PM's saying someone had put their swing up. What lia has done is completely fine. However if you want advice or analysis we ask that you PM an academy instructor or anyone else and communicate in that medium.

Nice progress lia and sorry for the PSA.
 

lia41985

New member
Jared is dead-on behind my intentions. I was an early-detractor of the out-toss. I didn't get it. I had to step away from myself, realize what my place in this game was (golf enthusiast, sometimes poster on Brian's forum; Brian: top 100 instructor, teacher to a multitude of great players including a major winner), and sit down and really work on the stuff from the "Ideas" video. When I did, I made more progress, more quickly than I ever have. My best days of golf are ahead of me thanks to Brian's work, the help of the other Academy members, and many of the members here. I just wanted to share part of my journey through this post.
 

art

New
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/AjFubB0_6BE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Have been doing a lot of work on my golf swing. Especially on the three mentioned areas of not tugging, achieving and maintaining dynamic stability and balance, and hitting completely straight balls. The big break through was working on the out toss which gave me so much more room. Way better ball flight as well as aesthetic improvements that were satisfying to achieve from a physical standpoint but totally secondary to the better ball striking. Re-watching Brian's "Ideas" video really opened some doors and I'm playing my best golf yet.



Dear lia41985,

Oh, how I hate this anonymity when trying to discus what has become so very important to me. At any rate, lia, you have provided to me and many others dependent on this site to SAY it as we see it, sometimes fact, often opinion, but all constructive as we continue searching for golf truth.

As I have posted in a few other strings, I am in the 4 th month of shingles healing and cooperating with the folks at UCLA to especially rid myself of the drugs that have been affecting my ability to remember, and think and write clearly. So I hope this is understandable .

In a currently active string, "Shortening the radius to release....", I have entered two almost identical posts honestly seeking inputs on changes suggested by mostly the worlds longest thread on "The release" a few months ago. Since reading and participating on the periphery of that subject, I have been very sensitive and aware of the meaning and possible impact of thugs like, Handle dragging, Flipping, Out toss, Laying off, Tumble, Negative tumble, Tugging, and of course, Dr. Nesbit's terms of Alpha, Beta and Gamma torques with which I am much more comfortable.

My point AND REQUEST is simply summed up in the verbatim reply I made to Bonsey, below, in the string noted above. In summary, it, AND THIS, is a SINCERE request to ask those of you 'correcting and improving' in these areas to try to provide me and others interested, A QUANTITATIVE and if not available at least a QUALITATIVE (longer, shorter, more or less accurate etc.) feel for the improvements you are realizing.

You, on this thread, have started to do this so here is my original request from the other string:



Quote Originally Posted by Bonesy View Post
By up tug I mean a little shoulder shrug (left shoulder) and a left left elbow bend (think Lee Westwood). I think I'm effective releasing this way rather than pulling up on the club via a jump. Any others experiencing this?
Bonsey,

Could you OR ANY ONE ELSE EMPLOYING THESE NEW RELEASE MOVES please quantify AND POST the changes in DISTANCE AND DISPERSION they are experiencing ? Trackman or FlightScope summary data would be perfect, but more 'qualitative data' from those of you like me with only driving rang 'signs' for measurement would be appreciated too.


I admit it is difficult for me to accomplish, and therefore my results are not favorable or representative, but until Brian makes another SOUTHERN California trip, I will continue to try, as you know, believing completely in the science of Dr. Steve Nesbit, and the teaching of Brian.

Thanks in advance,
art
 

lia41985

New member
Maybe you can somehow explain how you came to understand the out toss?
I'll give it a crack: as almost all of you know, I'm very big into studying still images and video of the golf swing. The way Brian described the out-toss in the "Ideas" video was such that it did not conform with what I thought I was seeing in these modalities. I definitely saw the tangential, away from the target motion from the top of the backswing but that's not the only component of the out-toss. The "basketball shot" motion of the right-hand (for the right-handed golfer) was a huge revelation because it got me "on top of the club" by being more "behind the face/sweetspot" and less dragged than before when the face would be more open and I'd be into a deeper "punch elbow" position. Nevertheless, I now have MORE forward lean (lower measured dynamic loft) with less path and face variation swing to swing. Now, I use my alignment to aid me in dialing in the direction of my out-toss to play the shot shape I want. Golf is a much easier game.
Dear lia41985,

Oh, how I hate this anonymity when trying to discus what has become so very important to me. At any rate, lia, you have provided to me and many others dependent on this site to SAY it as we see it, sometimes fact, often opinion, but all constructive as we continue searching for golf truth.

As I have posted in a few other strings, I am in the 4 th month of shingles healing and cooperating with the folks at UCLA to especially rid myself of the drugs that have been affecting my ability to remember, and think and write clearly. So I hope this is understandable .

In a currently active string, "Shortening the radius to release....", I have entered two almost identical posts honestly seeking inputs on changes suggested by mostly the worlds longest thread on "The release" a few months ago. Since reading and participating on the periphery of that subject, I have been very sensitive and aware of the meaning and possible impact of thugs like, Handle dragging, Flipping, Out toss, Laying off, Tumble, Negative tumble, Tugging, and of course, Dr. Nesbit's terms of Alpha, Beta and Gamma torques with which I am much more comfortable.

My point AND REQUEST is simply summed up in the verbatim reply I made to Bonsey, below, in the string noted above. In summary, it, AND THIS, is a SINCERE request to ask those of you 'correcting and improving' in these areas to try to provide me and others interested, A QUANTITATIVE and if not available at least a QUALITATIVE (longer, shorter, more or less accurate etc.) feel for the improvements you are realizing.

...

Could you OR ANY ONE ELSE EMPLOYING THESE NEW RELEASE MOVES please quantify AND POST the changes in DISTANCE AND DISPERSION they are experiencing ? Trackman or FlightScope summary data would be perfect, but more 'qualitative data' from those of you like me with only driving rang 'signs' for measurement would be appreciated too.
Thanks for your kind words. My wishes on your recovery. My mother was afflicted with shingles but thankfully she recovered after some time. "Verily with every difficulty there is relief." Bumpy back, qualitatively, improved my transition and through the ball pivot tremendously. Once I saw the changes in my through the ball pivot I was able to make a big change in my backswing pivot! Here's what I mean. Before, without employing Dr. Nesbit's "tangential" component into my swing, I would crash into the ball from the top of the backswing. Cramped, my body could do nothing but extend early and my bumpy was anything but back.

The "tangential" motion fit in perfectly with your writings about the right hip (slower) and left hip (faster) angular accelerations being different coming out of the transition of my golf swing (for the right-handed golfer). The "tangential" kept my bumpy back and with the club and my body no longer shooting out so soon to the ball the club had SO MUCH MORE room.

Achieving improved dynamic stability was the next step. Although my control of face and path had improved tremendously, without dynamic stability, there would be variation in these numbers but mostly, big variations in angle of attack numbers! I used to post on this forum a lot about swings being dynamic. The term was far too vague and another poster, I think John Graham, had called me on it. I owe John an apology and you a thanks because dynamism within the context of dynamic stability as you discuss it is more optimal and tangible. With my previously "dynamic" swing that employed no "tangential" motion and tons of early extension, I would be forced to stall my hip rotation too soon and jump. I thought this jumping was dynamic and I was headed in the right direction with my swing. I definitely wasn't. Now, I make sure I control the up and down (squat and jump) in my swing primarily to control my attack angle which secondarily affects my path.

Quantitatively (but an admittedly rough estimate), my average distance for each club is 5-10 yards longer (6 iron carry from 165-170 to 175-180) and my average dispersion is +/- 5 yards (10 yards offline to 5 yards offline with the 6 iron).

If there's anything more I can add in terms of giving you feedback, please let me know. I'm very grateful for your work and the least I could do is help you in this way.
Like it, Lia.

How in the world could you loose dynamic balance playing on those two platforms? Size 14's? :)
With bad mechanics and size 12's, of course ;) I hope that left shoulder is feeling even better.
Nice job Lia, that swing looks so much better than the first swing you posted.
Thanks, Matt. I think so too. For anyone who wants to mock Brian as a crackpot, go ahead. You're costing yourself improvement. It's a free country. Shoot yourself in the foot if you want.
 
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art

New
I'll give it a crack: as almost all of you know, I'm very big into studying still images and video of the golf swing. The way Brian described the out-toss in the "Ideas" video was such that it did not conform with what I thought I was seeing in these modalities. I definitely saw the tangential, away from the target motion from the top of the backswing but that's not the only component of the out-toss. The "basketball shot" motion of the right-hand (for the right-handed golfer) was a huge revelation because it got me "on top of the club" by being more "behind the face/sweetspot" and less dragged than before when the face would be more open and I'd be into a deeper "punch elbow" position. Nevertheless, I now have MORE forward lean (lower measured dynamic loft) with less path and face variation swing to swing. Now, I use my alignment to aid me in dialing in the direction of my out-toss to play the shot shape I want. Golf is a much easier game.

Thanks for your kind words. My wishes on your recovery. My mother was afflicted with shingles but thankfully she recovered after some time. "Verily with every difficulty there is relief." Bumpy back, qualitatively, improved my transition and through the ball pivot tremendously. Once I saw the changes in my through the ball pivot I was able to make a big change in my backswing pivot! Here's what I mean. Before, without employing Dr. Nesbit's "tangential" component into my swing, I would crash into the ball from the top of the backswing. Cramped, my body could do nothing but extend early and my bumpy was anything but back.

The "tangential" motion fit in perfectly with your writings about the right hip (slower) and left hip (faster) angular accelerations being different coming out of the transition of my golf swing (for the right-handed golfer). The "tangential" kept my bumpy back and with the club and my body no longer shooting out so soon to the ball the club had SO MUCH MORE room.

Achieving improved dynamic stability was the next step. Although my control of face and path had improved tremendously, without dynamic stability, there would be variation in these numbers but mostly, big variations in angle of attack numbers! I used to post on this forum a lot about swings being dynamic. The term was far too vague and another poster, I think John Graham, had called me on it. I owe John an apology and you a thanks because dynamism within the context of dynamic stability as you discuss it is more optimal and tangible. With my previously "dynamic" swing that employed no "tangential" motion and tons of early extension, I would be forced to stall my hip rotation too soon and jump. I thought this jumping was dynamic and I was headed in the right direction with my swing. I definitely wasn't. Now, I make sure I control the up and down (squat and jump) in my swing primarily to control my attack angle which secondarily affects my path.

Quantitatively (but an admittedly rough estimate), my average distance for each club is 5-10 yards longer (6 iron carry from 165-170 to 175-180) and my average dispersion is +/- 5 yards (10 yards offline to 5 yards offline with the 6 iron).

If there's anything more I can add in terms of giving you feedback, please let me know. I'm very grateful for your work and the least I could do is help you in this way.

With bad mechanics and size 12's, of course ;) I hope that left shoulder is feeling even better.

Thanks, Matt. I think so too. For anyone who wants to mock Brian as a crackpot, go ahead. You're costing yourself improvement. It's a free country. Shoot yourself in the foot if you want.


Dear lia,

Thanks SOOOOO much for your comprehensive explanation of what you have gone thru to improve your ball striking including the estimates I requested.

I am analyzing another hypothesis I have developed during the past months and it assumes that TEMPO consistency, and at least LOWER BODY DYNAMIC STABILITY are CRUCIAL TO POSSESS before there can be any MEASURABLE growth/improvement in the CONSISTENCY of the characteristics associated with improvements in the RELEASE "out toss, alpha, beta gamma. etc".

While I 'feel' it is intuitively obvious that the golfers swing had to at least be 'mature' before attempting the new release characteristics, I wanted to poll Brian's blog audience for their experiences, EXPECTING, unlike you, that they had not (yet) adopted/committed to BBKIB as a part of their every full swing, and we couls d establish a NON BBKIB data base for the new "release'.

What I expect are small bur measurable improvements to those that have adopted some/all the new 'release' advice BUT WITH DISCERNIBLY LARGER DISPERSIONS in both distance and accuracy. In my world of dynamics, this simply means that while attempting these new 'release' moves, the dynamics of the 'explosive downswing' especially the energy build-up and magnitude (BEFORE ANY OF THE RELEASE MOVES WERE TO TAKE PLACE), will result in involuntary and error-producing reflex actions.

So if we all want 'golf truth', we MUST look at the statistical 'one sigma' dispersions both FlightScope and TrackMan display FOR ALL THE APPROPRIATE POSITION, PATH AND VELOCITY PARAMETERS. My guess is that without BBKIB the dispersions will be higher than desirable, so my FIRST request was for just the distance and accuracy data of the new 'release', with and without BBKIB.

I hope others reading this that have useful data will come forward and share it with those of us interested in this comparison, because, IMO, ONLY THAT WHICH GETS MEASURED HAS A CHANCE OF GROWING AND IMPROVING.

Thanks again lia for your effort AND SHARING THE DETAILS WITH US.

Appreciatively,
art
 
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