Need some help with my swing, especially my flip

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golfman5900

New
Ok,
I've been working at getting rid of my flip in my swing. Currently I'm using S&T, but if it doesn't work out in the first month of the season I'm probably going to dump because there is no one within 10 hours of where I live that teaches anything like it. Personally, I need a teacher to help me and the complete lack of S&T teachers is pretty awful! As a result I'm not doing so well with it (having a lot of problems getting some of the moves down properly)

Anyways, I've been making some progress but I still flip! It's driving me crazy! I'm in the boat where I know that flipping is bad, but I can't convince my right hand from flipping through impact. I've read the impact zone by Bobby Clampett and I've watched Confessions of a former flipper (I wish it was indexed so I could jump through it though) and I've made some progress. I can hold lag well on shorter shots (chips in particular, the pitches are pretty good though too) but whenever I do a full swing I flip. I think my pivot must be defective, or at least something along those lines. I've made most of my practice doing those shorter swings (Clampett suggests doing pitches until you have it working correctly) but I need something to help with fuller swings still. Do I just need more practice?

The most recent video I have of my full swing is from April 1st (its 16 seconds long, but plays at over 1 minute....the latter bit is just my editing software messing up so after the first swing the video is over). We had a bad winter here, so the ranges will FINALLY open this weekend and I will take some new video! I'll also post here for comparison my starting point from last November (2008).

I'd appreciate any help you guys can give me!

Nov 2008 a.k.a super flip:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ4yzGCpX0Y[/media]


April 2009 a.k.a lesser flip:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmZHUELHpl8[/media]
 
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lookingtolearn

New
Root cause

I think you're letting the club get WAY too open and over-rotated early in the backswing.

Also, if you're trying to work on a flip (which really doesn't look that bad), S&T might not be the way to go. Read this --Biggest Lie

I recommend you check out the Soft Draw Pattern video. It would help a bunch.

Until then, I suggest trying:

1. Mid-body hands at address (butt of the club points at belt buckle)
2. A little lagging clubhead takeaway (body pulls the hands)
3. Hands more in during the takeaway, with the clubface looking more at the ball
 
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golfman5900

New
Whoa whoa whoa.....so you're telling me that the method I've picked up to improve my low point position is actually worse than my previous "normal swing"? I read over that article and it seems to make sense. I really enjoyed that Brian didn't just hack on S&T like other people but took a constructive approach to show a potential down side of the swing pattern (very refreshing compared to other S&T reviews). Just doing some practice swings I can notice the difference in how my left shoulder moves, and it does appear to move less left on the downswing using S&T. I'll definitley do some more reasearch and I will try my old swing out for comparison (if I can still do it). One thing that I do have to add is that my contact never did really improve with S&T. I still hit most shots pretty well, but had the occasional fat shot. I always felt that if I was on, S&T produced great results, but if I had a bad day I seemed to do worse than with my normal swing. I thought that was just getting used to the swing, but maybe there was more to it.

As for the suggestions:
1) I can give that a shot no problem
2) Oddly enough I did that before I went to S&T (back when I was getting "regular" lessons). It was part of a drill however.
3) So hands more to the inside of the target line? Also for the face to look at the ball, is this the twistaway technique I've seen mentioned? In other words I should have a slight rotation counter clockwise with my left arm and hand in the backswing? I do the opposite! Won't this just make me hit a monster hook?

I will go look at the soft draw pattern video too...although I'll probably wait till payday to pick it up!

Thanks for the help....my golf mind is all over the place now!! This will definitley take some tinkering!
 
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golfer24

New
Are there actually any teachers who say they teach stack and tilt. If there are i seriously doubt they are doing so with the blessing of Plummer and Bennett and probably only trying to make a quick buck. Their knowledge of the satck and tilt may only be from magazine and books. This concept was only named Stack and Tilt i believe by Charlie Wie to be something catchy and for that it is a marketing mans dream slogan. One day i am sure they will have authorised teachers of Stack and Tilt and golf schools called Stack and Tilt even have a clothing line.Of course that also depends on the sucess of the tour pro's who use it.
 
Richie3Jack

Richie3Jack

New
golfer24 said:
Are there actually any teachers who say they teach stack and tilt. If there are i seriously doubt they are doing so with the blessing of Plummer and Bennett and probably only trying to make a quick buck. Their knowledge of the satck and tilt may only be from magazine and books. This concept was only named Stack and Tilt i believe by Charlie Wie to be something catchy and for that it is a marketing mans dream slogan. One day i am sure they will have authorised teachers of Stack and Tilt and golf schools called Stack and Tilt even have a clothing line.Of course that also depends on the sucess of the tour pro's who use it.
Click to expand...

There are teachers that teach the S&T. And they have worked with P&B on learning the method. I actually don't think there are many teachers who teach the S&T method and haven't worked with P&B because I would say when all is said and done, more golfer eschew the method than those who really like it. It's probably not even close.

If S&T was a form of music, it would be some indy/underground scene with a very loyal, but very small following. So I'm not really imagining many teachers learning a method through a DVD and teaching it for that once in a very rare occasion some student inquires about the pattern.

Could it happen? Yes. But pretty unlikely, IMO.



3JACK
 
Bill Miracle

Bill Miracle

New
golfman5900 said:
Whoa whoa whoa.....so you're telling me that the method I've picked up to improve my low point position is actually worse than my previous "normal swing"? I read over that article and it seems to make sense. I really enjoyed that Brian didn't just hack on S&T like other people but took a constructive approach to show a potential down side of the swing pattern (very refreshing compared to other S&T reviews). Just doing some practice swings I can notice the difference in how my left shoulder moves, and it does appear to move less left on the downswing using S&T. I'll definitley do some more reasearch and I will try my old swing out for comparison (if I can still do it). One thing that I do have to add is that my contact never did really improve with S&T. I still hit most shots pretty well, but had the occasional fat shot. I always felt that if I was on, S&T produced great results, but if I had a bad day I seemed to do worse than with my normal swing. I thought that was just getting used to the swing, but maybe there was more to it.

As for the suggestions:
1) I can give that a shot no problem
2) Oddly enough I did that before I went to S&T (back when I was getting "regular" lessons). It was part of a drill however.
3) So hands more to the inside of the target line? Also for the face to look at the ball, is this the twistaway technique I've seen mentioned? In other words I should have a slight rotation counter clockwise with my left arm and hand in the backswing? I do the opposite! Won't this just make me hit a monster hook?

I will go look at the soft draw pattern video too...although I'll probably wait till payday to pick it up!

Thanks for the help....my golf mind is all over the place now!! This will definitley take some tinkering!
Click to expand...

I don't think you'll get a lot of help supporting the S&T. There are too many other options in the Manzella Matrix that should be able to fix you. For 10.00 a video, you can't beat the value and quality of education.

How long have you been golfing? I've been golfing about 3.5years. I have improved tremendously from this site. Started out in the NSA pattern. Moved to Soft Draw. Now I am using NHA and that seems to be where I need to be.

You will find that there is no one stock pattern like S&T. You may need NSA for a time and then find you've either outgrown that pattern or would like a different ball flight. Or...like me....became a real under plan swinger and had to move away from both SD and NSA. NHA was the perfect fix. If I start coming over the top a little too much I know what to add to fix it. If the ball does this or that out of the norm, a little this or a little that is the fix. If I can't figure it out....Bman or one of the competent staff will give a qualified response in almost no time.

So, I hope you don't kill your back with S&T and find your niche in the Matrix.
 
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fronesis

New
I just want to respond to the original post and agree strongly with lookingtolearn. Regardless of the S&T issues, it seems to me that the flip is exacerbated (if not caused) by opening club up way too much on the backswing.

I'm a broken record around here these days, but I still think that for a lot of people Brian's best teaching is in NSA. Looking at your swing, I think you need to work on keeping the clubface pointing at the ball on the backswing, and lagging the sweetspot on the downswing on the way to a wedding ring up finish. If you do those 3 things - NO FLIP!
 
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golfman5900

New
Ok guys, I will definitley look into my clubface being too open and that causing my flip. I'm still keeping my options open (not devoted to any one methodology), but I would like to know whether you think NSA of soft draw pattern would be a better starting point for me. I can figure out how to close the clubface down, and I'm assuming lagging the sweetspot is just lagging the club/forward aiming point.

BTW, good guess with 3.5 years (4 now actually). I'm an 8 handicap, with a pretty good shortgame. I always felt if I could hit more greens I could improve (on average I hit about 6 greens/round).
 
Burner

Burner

New
golfman5900 said:
Ok guys, I will definitley look into my clubface being too open and that causing my flip. I'm still keeping my options open (not devoted to any one methodology), but I would like to know whether you think NSA of soft draw pattern would be a better starting point for me. I can figure out how to close the clubface down, and I'm assuming lagging the sweetspot is just lagging the club/forward aiming point.

BTW, good guess with 3.5 years (4 now actually). I'm an 8 handicap, with a pretty good shortgame. I always felt if I could hit more greens I could improve (on average I hit about 6 greens/round).
Click to expand...

Set up is all important.

With your current set up you are flipping because, subconsciously maybe, you fear that you will miss the ball completely if you don't throw the club head down and in to the ball.

Try placing the ball much further forwards in your stance when you next go to the range and stick with it until you begin to make decent contact on a regular basis.

You will struggle to make any form of contact with a more forward ball placement if you continue to flip the club head at the ball. So, just slowly at first, swing down to the ball until you can make contact whilst your right wrist is still bent and your left wrist flat. Imagine that you are scraping the ball along, and then off, the floor.
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Clearwater said:
Wow
Click to expand...

I knew you'd love that one;)

Allow me to clarify. Obviously some people have benefited but in my opinion there arent enough people that would need or can physically do S&T to teach that method, or any one method for that matter, exclusively. How could you possibly argue that?
 
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