NEW Brian Manzella YouTube Video Answer #1 -The Flying Elbow. Can it be a good thing?

[Brian Manzella]

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[birdie_man]

Very good Brian.

 

[ssssc]

ty

 

[Steve Greffen]

First class all the way. From the explanation to how it may be good for some and not for others.

Thanks for getting this up it is good to have the best in the biz on the "Tube" again.

Btw did you got the iPhone now? And are you still working on the BM application?

Steve

 

[landongolf]

Brian, excellent video, Well done...Jack

 

[Richie3Jack]

Awhile ago I was watching something on Willie Mays and he was talking to young baseball players about the baseball swing and he was talking about pulling it with the left arm. Of course, he would know a thing or two about hitting for power. I am now curious as to what guys like Wade Boggs did, the singles and doubles hitters, and wonder if they may have used a 'force across the shaft' method with their baseball swing.



3JACK

 

[Brian Manzella]

From the old thread....

I just wanted to get some opinions on a flying elbow and is it really a bad thing or not?

Obviously it's worked for a lot of people like Nicklaus, Lopez, etc. etc. So it can be effective, but what swing components would you have to use in order to make it work for you?

1. Why do people have a flying elbow, is it flexability, or are they loading up the right arm to use it for leverage. Not trying to get into a hitting/swinging discussion, but I think the flying elbow puts the right arm in a strong position to push from.

2. What adjustments does a player with a flying elbow have to use. It appears they open the club less on the takeaway, so do they require less rotation into the ball?

Also, for you guys that are instructors, is this something you try to fix, or do you work in swing components that are compatible with a flying elbow?

It's in the video.

I don't think the flying elbow is a bad thing at all. But, it's not for me.

I think it becomes problematic for people like myself because the rear elbow gets nearby the rear rib cage on the downswing. So if you get the rear elbow away from that rib cage on the backswing, you need to return it back there on the downswing. Some people can do it no problem time and time again. Others struggle with that.

It definitely seems more of a 'pure swinging' aka force along the shaft method of hitting the golf ball to have that flying right elbow.

Diito.

They do let it fly so they can use it for leverage and I wont touch it on good athletes but will consider changing it on lesser athletes because of timing issues and tightening the misses.

whenever I swing like John Daly with flying elbow, I hit really really far (comparison to myself).

I would say they mostly do it because of a lack of ability to externally rotate the trail arm, combined with a lack of shoulder stability. Or they may have the ability but just learned that motor pattern.

Or it may work better.

For some, a lot better.

This is a good point. Question for all: Do you think the lack of external rotation in the trail arm, whether inability or choice, is the reason that for most people they hit it further using it? Effectively speeding up the external rotation in the lead forearm, because of "the toss" ala SD? Probably an elementary question for some, but I'm elementary..thanks.

I feel like it adds alot of speed to the snap in the kinetic chain of my swing.

If I get the elbow too high I shank it like crazy.

But like Richie that is just my deal.

Because you don't just pull it (The "Power Package") INTO place, you pull it BEYOND and get under plane and below the sweetspot.

Like you said, you don't need it.

I would not fly the elbow just because jack or JB does it.

I would also not deliberately keep it tucked in either.It makes sense on paper that a tucked right elbow would be easier to return on the downswing but it impedes a natural motion.It can also get the club too flat too early and a overly flat shoulder turn.

It should fly a little but the motion should be fairly natural,not forced.If you were to jump straight up as high as you can,do you bend your knees all the way down to prepare for the jump?Too much bend can impede your ability to jump high as with too little bend.

ej20....

sorry but i have yet to teach a golfer that i couldn't get to keep their right elbow more "down" or more "out" and flyn'. This ranges from people in their mid 20s to mid 50s.

Also nothing about the golf swing ESPECIALLY WHEN MAKING CHANGES is "natural." Often times a new move has to be consciously forced to happen so you can learn it and repeat it. THEN it becomes more "natural" and repeatable.

Jim,

I agree making changes in the golf swing don't feel natural.

But in what instances would you teach a player to fly or tuck their right elbow and why?

Flying the right elbow leads to a very steep shoulder turn and can also get the club overly steep.Players like Jack and Couples can recover but not the average player.

Keeping the right elbow tucked bends the right arm too soon leading to a flat shoulder turn and possibly flat swing plane.Azinger could recover but not the average player.

EJ, did the video help you to understand our view?

 

[ej20]

Yup,good video Brian.Keep em coming.

 

[Matt Bryda]

How to control the pull down from a wide right elbow at the top

Is the underhand javelin toss the only way to guide the hands arms club unit into the delivery position? It seems I have a difficult time waiting for the toss with my lower body.

 

[puttmad]

....

Awhile ago I was watching something on Willie Mays and he was talking to young baseball players about the baseball swing and he was talking about pulling it with the left arm. Of course, he would know a thing or two about hitting for power. I am now curious as to what guys like Wade Boggs did, the singles and doubles hitters, and wonder if they may have used a 'force across the shaft' method with their baseball swing.



3JACK

Richie,
Go here for full info...

BatSpeed.com_Baseball and Softball Swing Hitting Mechanics

(I've used these principles on a golf swing BTW, about 5 years ago...surprising results...)

 

[puttmad]

Is the underhand javelin toss the only way to guide the hands arms club unit into the delivery position? It seems I have a difficult time waiting for the toss with my lower body.

sy,

I do the same thing a different way....I anchor my upper left arm to my chest at the top and then simply compress my right side between hip and shoulder....this brings the right arm naturally back into the right side and "drops" the arms into "the slot," without having to think about javelin tosses, rope pulls, or anything like that...but you must be lower body PIVOTING as well.....

 

[Richie3Jack]

Richie,
Go here for full info...

BatSpeed.com_Baseball and Softball Swing Hitting Mechanics

(I've used these principles on a golf swing BTW, about 5 years ago...surprising results...)

There's a guy by the name of Dr. Mike Marshall who was a former Cy Young winner for the Dodgers back in 1974. He was actually a relief pitcher, but won the Cy Young award because he had the most appearances for a pitcher in one season (he pitched phenomenally as well, so combine that with a boat load of appearances, he was a major weapon for that Dodgers team).

The reason why he was able to pitch so well with so many appearances (and he was a somewhat short guy) was he went to study biomechanics and such up at Michigan State and got his doctorate there and he basically wanted to figure how to throw without hurting your arm.

He then found the mechanics of that throwing motion, and can teach pitchers to throw a variety of pitches, even the wicked screwball (which was his specialty in the Majors) without hurting the arm.

Anyway, I've read some of his stuff on hitting even though he doesn't go into it very much. He studies the bio mechanics of hitting a baseball and basically has come up with a 'pure swinger' type of motion in hitting a baseball as the best method of generating the most power.




3JACK

 

[burners]

Flying elbow and cupped left wrist (like baseball)

Enjoyed the video. What's the consensus on cupping the left wrist at the top as a power generator? A BB player would never have a flat left wrist at "the top" of his swing. Try it; it feels really awkward and weak. However, let the wrist bend/cup and it immediately feels stronger. (It looked like Brian was keeping his flat.)

Since you don't have to square the face on a bat it's not an issue, but with a clubface the unhinging of the left wrist can be a bit tricky. But what a power generator when you can carry it late into the downswing and then give it the ol' Hogan right-hand treatment. Feels like a really hard pull and then a throw. The handle is leading and the wrist supinates through impact so there isn't any flipping.

Thoughts?

 

[JonWil]

Since you don't have to square the face on a bat it's not an issue, but with a clubface the unhinging of the left wrist can be a bit tricky. But what a power generator when you can carry it late into the downswing and then give it the ol' Hogan right-hand treatment. Feels like a really hard pull and then a throw. The handle is leading and the wrist supinates through impact so there isn't any flipping.

Thoughts?

Burners - With supination turning the palm up are you referring to the right hand supinating through impact? Just curious.

 

[burners]

Jon,

No, I mean the left palm (forearm actually).

If you have the left wrist in a position of dorsiflexion (bent/cupped), and you don't supinate the lead forearm/wrist/hand, then the right palm would be facing up and the face would be wide open.

In truth, I like the powerful feel of the bent left wrist, but I struggled with the timing of the release--usually missing it left. Because the face is so open, you really have to get the right palm turning down. This feels strong too because there can be no holding back. It's interesting to experiment with.

Anyway, I try to play with a relatively flat wrist (or a little bent like in Soft Draw) and don't try to hold on to anything in the downswing. To me, it feels like I'm releasing from the top (like Nickloss), but my arm swing is fast enough to where the clubhead doesn't catch up until around impact. Cheers.

 

[JonWil]

Jon,

No, I mean the left palm (forearm actually).

If you have the left wrist in a position of dorsiflexion (bent/cupped), and you don't supinate the lead forearm/wrist/hand, then the right palm would be facing up and the face would be wide open.

In truth, I like the powerful feel of the bent left wrist, but I struggled with the timing of the release--usually missing it left. Because the face is so open, you really have to get the right palm turning down. This feels strong too because there can be no holding back. It's interesting to experiment with.

Anyway, I try to play with a relatively flat wrist (or a little bent like in Soft Draw) and don't try to hold on to anything in the downswing. To me, it feels like I'm releasing from the top (like Nickloss), but my arm swing is fast enough to where the clubhead doesn't catch up until around impact. Cheers.

Burners,
Great explanation! - Thank you.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Jon,

No, I mean the left palm (forearm actually).

If you have the left wrist in a position of dorsiflexion (bent/cupped), and you don't supinate the lead forearm/wrist/hand, then the right palm would be facing up and the face would be wide open.

In truth, I like the powerful feel of the bent left wrist, but I struggled with the timing of the release--usually missing it left. Because the face is so open, you really have to get the right palm turning down. This feels strong too because there can be no holding back. It's interesting to experiment with.

Anyway, I try to play with a relatively flat wrist (or a little bent like in Soft Draw) and don't try to hold on to anything in the downswing. To me, it feels like I'm releasing from the top (like Nickloss), but my arm swing is fast enough to where the clubhead doesn't catch up until around impact. Cheers.

Burners, when you bend the left wrist, the face is closed. Turning the palm down is why you hook it. If you like the feel of the bent left wrist, dont give up on it until you know how to use it.

 

[burners]

Kevin,

I'm talking about the opposite of a "twisted away" left wrist position, where the back of the hand gets closer to forearm (it's cupped). I don't think the face can get any more open.

Cool?

 

[Kevin Shields]

Unless you rotate the arm, cupping the left wrist closes the face. Hold your hands in front of you with the face vertical and just cup your left wrist. It adds loft to the face but closes it to the plane.

 

[burners]

What, nobody coming to my rescue? I'm not talking about flipping it closed.

I'm talking about bending the wrist on the backswing and carrying it into the downswing like Hogan, Couples, Miller, etc. At impact it's not bent anymore.

Try Kevin's exercise, but cock your left wrist first (like in the swing). Now "bend" the left wrist. Is the face open or closed?