NEWSFLASH: (not new on BM.com) Low Point isn't always The Left Shoulder!!!!

[Brian Manzella]

We figured this out on December 17th 2005, thanks to Mandrin.

The left shoulder isn't always opposite "low point."

Here is a pic I drew to the 1000th of an inch in FreeHand MX:

This was a "geometry of the circle" drawn from a 2D still, in a 2D program.

And you know I HATE 2D!!!!

But, since some folks want to draw in 2D, and are drawing things really, really incorrectly, I drew this to give them all something to think about.

And of course, to educate all of you.

This pic shows that low point is NOT NECESSARILY under the left shoulder.

Here it is more or less under the "hub" or the point between the shoulders.

The amounts of "accumulator release" was taken from a video of a PGA Tour player.
Orange hued club-arm-shoulder—"frame 1"
Blue hued club-arm-shoulder—"frame 2"
Green hued club-arm-shoulder—"frame 3"

The front side of the black vertical line is the left shoulder at left arm vertical (green).

The dead middle of the black vertical line is the left shoulder at impact (blue).

The dotted black line is the ground.

The pink line is 3° downward strike—resultant path.

The circle is goofy, because, well, there is no circle in the swing like people draw.

The "divot" would NOT be the whole area between the ground and the vertical black line, the green "club" line shows the club going WAY UP before it would get to the balck vertical line. In fact, from what I measure here, there would just be a scrape.

I could spend an hour telling you how much more accurate this is than any thing folks who draw the so-called "geometry of the circle," but I won't waste your time.

This ain't correct either.

But it beat the heck out of that other blatantly wrong stuff.

More to come...just for fun.

 

[bax1865]

Brian, would I be correct that this is the result of the "up and in" action of the left shoulder during this sequence?

 

[Michael Finney]

we should have a cracker barrel session about this graphic...

 

[cmartingolf]

Okay, so low point isn't under the left shoulder. It's somewhere just before the left shoulder, but divots suggest that the low point with good players is ahead of the ball.

So, how have we been doing that for so long (okay some of us)?

 

[cmartingolf]

B,

"I see," said the Blind Man.

The "not necessarily," you add must have something to do with how much the left arm is coming off the chest. If the pressure remains, I see this models accuracy. If the left arm is working off the chest and the angel is getting greater (left arm/shoulder line), my feable brain suggests that it makes it's own arc which would get the club "lower."

 

[cmartingolf]

This almost kept me up last night (yes, I'm a geek).

The left wrist going from flat to uncocked adds length to the lever. So, if the left shoulder is going up and low point is NOT under the left shoulder according to ths 2D stick drawing, the uncocking left wrist might provide more than just a scrape...

 

[bax1865]

This almost kept me up last night (yes, I'm a geek).

The left wrist going from flat to uncocked adds length to the lever. So, if the left shoulder is going up and low point is NOT under the left shoulder according to ths 2D stick drawing, the uncocking left wrist might provide more than just a scrape...

Especially true if the left wrist is not fully uncocked until after impact. There may be a balancing out of the length of the lever with the upward movement of the left shoulder along with the uncocking left wrist.

 

[bax1865]

I'm quite certain there are but does anyone have measurments of the left shoulder and it location in reference to the plane line ( ie. distance from and alignment to) during the impact interval? At what point of this area of the swing are the shoulders square to the plane line and how soon are the open to the plane line. My guess would be that for different plane angles and shoulder turn types there would be slightly different numbers......just curious to know

 

[ggsjpc]

So, I guess the what I'm getting out of all this is the low point is relative to the ground not to the shoulder. Makes sense.

 

[puttmad]

This almost kept me up last night (yes, I'm a geek).

The left wrist going from flat to uncocked adds length to the lever.

I have to disagree cm.....if you mean uncocked as "going to a cupped" position (hyper extension) then the lever (from shoulder to clubhead) will shorten.....where the ground is, is irrelevant...

 

[cmartingolf]

I have to disagree cm.....if you mean uncocked as "going to a cupped" position (hyper extension) then the lever (from shoulder to clubhead) will shorten.....where the ground is, is irrelevant...

No, I don't mean cupped. If you stood on a bench and hovered the club at the same level as your feet, you would be able to uncock (thumbs down) and get the club under the level of your feet. Make sense? The club would go down and inward.

 

[puttmad]

No, I don't mean cupped. If you stood on a bench and hovered the club at the same level as your feet, you would be able to uncock (thumbs down) and get the club under the level of your feet. Make sense? The club would go down and inward.

AH. its simply a terminology issue.....you said "flat," which to me is in contrast to hyper extended or palmer flexed....
You were talking about ulna deviation (when the pointing left thumb is in line with the top of the left forearm), which can also exist while the left wrist is "flat"....

This also raises the question of what releases first, the cocked left wrist, or the anti-clockwise rotation of the forearm to sqare the club face up....

My info on this is that the ideal is to release the left wrist cock slightly before the final arm rotation, allowing you to obtain maximum extension (and club head acceleration), thus providing you with a consistent measurement (arm to clubhead) to the bottom of the clubhead...

 

[cmartingolf]

Man, those are some fancy words. I have to read some anatomy books

I'm sure there is some science on this, but I think the uncocking happens, then the forearm rotates, then MORE uncocking happens after impact.

I guess it has too. The left shoulder is going up. Something takes the club to the bottom of the divot in effective swings.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I dont know what happens for sure but if I wait for the left wrist to uncock before any rolling there isnt enough golf course on the right to contain me.

Cmartin, you're right. I had a dictionary out on that one.

 

[ggsjpc]

I can't post anywhere else so I just want to say:

The club and left arm will be the longest when they line up with each other.

This does not necessarily mean that lowpoint relative to the ground is when that occurs.

The left shoulder would have to stay at a constant height for low point to always be there.

One of the big reasons there is a divot after the ball is the collision with the ball it self. The angle of attack into the ball is always more shallow than the angle after seperation. The shaft deflect and this causes the club head to go down more. Watch this 3 wood head right after the hit at the 54 second mark. A very noticable steeping decent after impact.

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[Kevin Shields]

Kinda the point i was trying to make over there.

 

[ggsjpc]

I don't think they ever got it. =(

 

[Matt Bryda]

Kinda the point i was trying to make over there.

O.K. I missed it, overwhere?

I don't think they ever got it. =(

What?

Matt

 

[tongzilla]

Question:

Is the case where low point is behind the left shoulder as shown here more common in good players than the case where low point is in front of the left shoulder? (since low point @opposite of left shoulder is such a tiny spot we'll ignore it).