Nicklaus/Hogan Model Question Re: VSP

[lia41985]

Would it be fair to say that "through the bag" the "Nicklaus" model would tend toward having the golfer swinging the club with a steeper VSP (number) than the "Hogan" model would have the golfer swinging the club?

 

[cwdlaw223]

I vote yes, however, how did Nicklaus cause the club to drop the shaft onto his right elbow plane at impact when he looked so vertical in his downswing?

For me, I like to get my hands up in the backswing instead of around. I don't have the club shaft drop onto the elbow plane at impact.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Believe it or not.....maybe the opposite!

 

[wulsy]

Tumble vs backing up?

 

[mjstrong]

Shaft Angle vs. sweetspot plane?

 

[tongzilla]

Hands steeper, shaft might be shallower with the Nicklaus model

 

[cwdlaw223]

How could the hands be steeper and the shaft be shallower?

I think that Tom Watson or Hale Irwin might be a better pattern for the question than Nicklaus. IMO, Watson and Erwin had much higher hands and steeper shaft angles into impact than Nicklaus.

 

[Kevin Shields]

He prob meant step hands/shaft....shallow sweetspot angle

 

[lia41985]

Wonder if the width that is a component of the "Nicklaus model" swing allows for more room to flatten...? Kinda like this guy:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/h3DyO1PKg_A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

BYRON NELSON is my golf hero. The best hitter I ever saw. The way he flattened his swing at the bottom with his legs was genius. You could never teach that move. It was better than orthodox, almost beyond technique. He told me that after he went away for six months early in his career to make his backswing more upright, he knew he'd never play badly again. Imagine being able to say that.

http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/2011-03/jacobs-diaz-lessons#ixzz1HNZlO0zl

Whereas I'm thinking that with a narrower, "Hogan model" swing you have less room to have your VSP shift through a wide range (of degrees)--which is maybe why these type of swings are so vaunted for being so "on plane"--there's less vertical swing plane angle variation throughout the swing even if the final VSP reading obtained via Trackman is a higher (steeper) number as compared to with the "Nicklaus model".

Does that make any sense?

 

[mgranato]

Kinda, sorta off topic, but maybe not...

If we could have gotten TM numbers (club and ball) from these guys in their primes, how much different would instruction (at least the mentality) look like today?

 

[Jared Willerson]

What is the definition of "backing up" the shaft?

 

[lia41985]

What is the definition of "backing up" the shaft?

Here you go:

Backed up shaft is...basically...when the shaft is working in an opposite manner from the top down. Instead of swing out to the ball from hip high down,the shaft and clubhead bend back away from the ball, opening the face.

 

[tongzilla]

He prob meant step hands/shaft....shallow sweetspot angle

Yes

 

[trickyric67]

Believe it or not.....maybe the opposite!

I was thinking the same thing, Hogan had an insane pitch elbow that seamed to increase his VSP or AoA, I may be mixing the 2 up.
Jack was all about the swing of the club and was more of a gradual release right from the transition blend of backswing and downswing. At lease that is what i thought.

 

[wulsy]

Would it be fair to say that "through the bag" the "Nicklaus" model would tend toward having the golfer swinging the club with a steeper VSP (number) than the "Hogan" model would have the golfer swinging the club?

Bear in mind that the original question was about VSP not AoA.

 

[tobell]

Sweetspot orbit

The sweetspot orbits around the hands through the impact zone, down around low point, if the hands are position more on top of the sweetspot (looking down from overhead) the sweetspot orbit/arc would be acute and sharper left than if the hands were positioned "inside" the sweetspot. The sweetspot will seek an in line condition with the principle powering lever. Not as TGM as it may read...left there long ago.

 

[johnnymarlboro]

Wonder if the width that is a component of the "Nicklaus model" swing allows for more room to flatten...? Kinda like this guy:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/h3DyO1PKg_A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

John Jacobs: A Life Full Of Lessons: Golf Digest

Whereas I'm thinking that with a narrower, "Hogan model" swing you have less room to have your VSP shift through a wide range (of degrees)--which is maybe why these type of swings are so vaunted for being so "on plane"--there's less vertical swing plane angle variation throughout the swing even if the final VSP reading obtained via Trackman is a higher (steeper) number as compared to with the "Nicklaus model".

Does that make any sense?

I'm a little late to the party on this, but I read that article before, and that quote about Nelson flattening his swing with his legs reminded me of something Lee Trevino said. He mentions something similar starting at about the :43 second mark.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/trJTKg7RltY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It's quite different looking then Byron Nelson's swing, but I thought it was pretty interesting using his legs like that to flatten the shaft. It's something that I sort of came across trying to hit punch shots with a super strong grip to reduce hand action through the ball to keep the trajectory down. I had to really drive my knees to avoid smothering the ball. I didn't really understand why it was helping till I heard Trevino say what he did in that clip.