NSA: Does it tackle 'Over the top'?

[ColinMB]

Greets,

First post, but I've been lurking for quite a while. I have a few quick mechanical questions to any NSA experts.

Firstly, I'd like to say that I take regular instruction from an excellent golfer. I trust him quite a bit.

That being said I am a habitual slicer... with driver pre-dominantly. But I have been told this is mainly because I 'come over the top'. Over the last year I have worked extremely hard to 'come inside'.

Does anything in the NSA video (which I just purchased the online version today) cover that aspect of slicing?

I've seen glimpses of the 'twist away'. The concept appears to concentrate on attaining a square face at impact. I have a fairly strong grip, and consider myself a 'two planer' for swing type. Of course this means my swing is instantly destroyed by early chest rotation in the downswing.

Is there anything I can expect that targets my type of slicing?

Another sidenote. I have been trying to diagnose what it means when you hit a driver, and for a good 150+ yards it appears straight as an arrow, then for the last 100 yards it spins right, a good... 20 + yards putting you/me in the bush. Is this typically a result of open face? Over the top side spin? Or both?

At this point I'm desperate though and am willing to try just about anything.
I'd appreciate some insight. I look forward to the video and have enjoyed Brian's volumes of work thus far.

Thanks.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Over The Top

What is the "cure" for coming over the top?

Not needing to.

"Never Slice Again" is NOT the only way to fix a slicer. The "Soft Draw" pattern will fix many without ANY twistaway. (I know the video isn't out yet).

But,

If you follow the steps in NSA 2, INCLUDING THE ADJUSTMENTS TO THE TWISTWAY LATER IN THE VIDEO (only do what you need, basically), you will have NO NEED to "come over the top."

 

[ColinMB]

Thank you for the quick response. I'm downloading the video as I write this, and I will definitely pay special attention to the area you mention.

Curious though, I never golfed as a youth and picked up the game a few years ago and never thought of _my_ coming over the top as a 'needed' action but instead more of a.... misguided thought in generating power. I've read your PDF on striking inside the ball... that's definitely an amazingly (and simple) way of starting to work on the problem (IMHO).

I'm not exactly sure what 'soft draw' refers to, but it sounds like what my instructor tries to get me to do... over and over. Basically a drop to the inside before rotating my shoulders over the ball. At this point it feels like retraining the brain!

But when I see guys like Els and so many great pro's, there path is SO far inside I know I am missing something here when I see video of myself and my Driver shaft is crossing my upper shoulder on the way down (viewing down the line). I know this is instant recipe for disaster.

Thanks again for the quick response.

 

[curtisj76]

"At this point I'm desperate though and am willing to try just about anything."

-Don't worry man, I used to slice ALL THE TIME. After I "met" Brian over the internet my slice has VANISHED. I'm talking immediately. Good luck!

 

[ThomasTheTank]

I've seen glimpses of the 'twist away'. The concept appears to concentrate on attaining a square face at impact. I have a fairly strong grip, and consider myself a 'two planer' for swing type. Of course this means my swing is instantly destroyed by early chest rotation in the downswing.

Question for the better players. Is this really a problem? If you have good rotation from the top (be it from the chest, hips or whatever) then provided you keep the hands passive and wrists in the same position (FLW) wouldnt the club just load a little and then shallow anyway as you turn?

Wouldnt the real cause of the slice be the hands/arms throwing the club forward and out combined with a lateral side?

 

[multi]

I'm definitely not a better player but I think it depends if you have the correct chest rotation. I know if I rotate my shoulders too flat on the downswing I'll end up over the top. Now that doesn't cause my slice, because if I do that holding the twistaway I'll start to the left and continue to hook it 50 yards left. If I early chest rotate correctly downplane then I lack some axis-tilt though.

I really hope I figure out my pattern soon, I'm really looking forward to soft draw because NSA really isn't clicking for me. Neutral grip, into impact with an arched wrist ("twisting"), try to roll and end up with wedding ring up (my left wrist never bends) but it still squirts right somedays, with a push or a fade depending my timing. If I try to hold twistaway from top I'll usually pull-hook it. I am pretty lost and hitting the ball a lot worse than I did a couple months ago, shanks and slices galore.

 

[dumazz]

"Swinging Under the Stick" should help with OTT.

 

[starretj]

I'm definitely not a better player but I think it depends if you have the correct chest rotation. I know if I rotate my shoulders too flat on the downswing I'll end up over the top. Now that doesn't cause my slice, because if I do that holding the twistaway I'll start to the left and continue to hook it 50 yards left. If I early chest rotate correctly downplane then I lack some axis-tilt though.

I really hope I figure out my pattern soon, I'm really looking forward to soft draw because NSA really isn't clicking for me. Neutral grip, into impact with an arched wrist ("twisting"), try to roll and end up with wedding ring up (my left wrist never bends) but it still squirts right somedays, with a push or a fade depending my timing. If I try to hold twistaway from top I'll usually pull-hook it. I am pretty lost and hitting the ball a lot worse than I did a couple months ago, shanks and slices galore.

Multi,
Make sure that your not underplane on your downswing. I hope that this helps.

Jim S.

 

[tongzilla]

Look at it this way. I wouldn't say Brian's swing in NSA comes over the top, but Brian has always had an over the top looking move, even in the NSA demonstration swing.

 

[fronesis]

I'm late to this thread, but I just want to emphasise to the original poster: LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY to what Brian says about slicing at the beginning of NSA. I've been absorbing bits of golf instruction for over 25 years, and in that time I've heard a million ways to cure a slice and a million causes for a slice.

What Brian explains at the beginning of NSA is perhaps the best insight into the golf swing that I've ever heard.

OTT does not CAUSE you to slice.
SLICING causes you to come OTT as a compensation for an open clubface.

The only thing that causes a slice is an open clubface. If you fix the clubface, you don't have to worry about those other things.

I used to struggle with OTT a lot. My big miss under pressure would often be an OTT move.

Since I learned the NSA pattern coming OTT never even enters my mind.

Study NSA. Fix the clubface. Then come back here for all the other great info.

 

[ThomasTheTank]

I'm definitely not a better player but I think it depends if you have the correct chest rotation. I know if I rotate my shoulders too flat on the downswing I'll end up over the top. Now that doesn't cause my slice, because if I do that holding the twistaway I'll start to the left and continue to hook it 50 yards left. If I early chest rotate correctly downplane then I lack some axis-tilt though.

I really hope I figure out my pattern soon, I'm really looking forward to soft draw because NSA really isn't clicking for me. Neutral grip, into impact with an arched wrist ("twisting"), try to roll and end up with wedding ring up (my left wrist never bends) but it still squirts right somedays, with a push or a fade depending my timing. If I try to hold twistaway from top I'll usually pull-hook it. I am pretty lost and hitting the ball a lot worse than I did a couple months ago, shanks and slices galore.

I think about turning my chest to face the target. The only way I can do this is for the left shoulder to come up and right shoulder to go down provided you have turned that chest over your right instep on the BS

As I work on getting rid of my flip I have found that when I start turning down and dont flip my clubface was shut at impact. This meant I still went left. I forgot all about OTT and whatever and focused purely on a good chest rotattion and then where my hands and the clubface were at impact. Because I kept going left I worked on more left arm rotation going back and a flatter left wrist at the top . Therefore a more open clubface into impact. Then I started hitting the ball straight with great compression

I still struggle with the cast and flip but I can see at least now what I should be doing

 

[ColinMB]

I'm late to this thread, but I just want to emphasise to the original poster: LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY to what Brian says about slicing at the beginning of NSA. /snip

What Brian explains at the beginning of NSA is perhaps the best insight into the golf swing that I've ever heard.

OTT does not CAUSE you to slice.
SLICING causes you to come OTT as a compensation for an open clubface.

The only thing that causes a slice is an open clubface. If you fix the clubface, you don't have to worry about those other things.

I used to struggle with OTT a lot. My big miss under pressure would often be an OTT move.

Since I learned the NSA pattern coming OTT never even enters my mind.

Study NSA. Fix the clubface. Then come back here for all the other great info.

I've watched the video twice since receiving it. I've done non-ball hitting practice. That is to say just mirror work/swing practice, and it's been an interesting... and very different feeling.

That part you refer to is very interesting. I found it kind of a surprised to hear Brian say that an outside in move is a result of slicing. I think I might be different because my ball flight starts straight (with driver only - irons are straighter), and about 150 yards out they tail, sometimes horridly into a slice.

I think I may just be in a minority that has this subconscious belief that 'power' is generated by my shoulders. Kind of like a one planer does (if you're into the one plane/two plane ideas).

But before I get too far off track, let me say the 'twist away' is definitely making the face close a TON easier at impact. BUT maybe even more importantly for me is the feeling of 'hitting the box'. And finally as simple as this sounds, I've never had anyone explain the right shoulder action on the down swing as Brian does. It's so dead.... simple! It's one of those things that you do it even once, and if you can swing inside once in a while, your brain goes, 'that's it. that's the feeling I need'.

I don't want to say too much more right now. I do believe what I've seen from the tape in fact does target my issues. I prefer to ingrain a swing thought off of the range for a few hours (without hitting balls). I will have to report back after tonight.

I'm feeling very positive about it though, just from the 'feel' differences I get from 2-3 key exercises Brian gives you. We'll see how it pans out in 'real life'.

 

[holeout]

That part you refer to is very interesting. I found it kind of a surprised to hear Brian say that an outside in move is a result of slicing. I think I might be different because my ball flight starts straight (with driver only - irons are straighter), and about 150 yards out they tail, sometimes horridly into a slice.

I think I may just be in a minority that has this subconscious belief that 'power' is generated by my shoulders. Kind of like a one planer does (if you're into the one plane/two plane ideas).

Your ballflight starts out straight because your clubface is reasonably square at impact. It curves off to the right because your path is to the left through the ball (or "out to in"). The reason your clubface is square is because of this out-to-in move; the reason you make this out-to-in move is because your clubface would be WIDE OPEN at impact without it.

Make sense?

 

[fronesis]

my ball flight starts straight (with driver only - irons are straighter), and about 150 yards out they tail, sometimes horridly into a slice.

NSA teaches you to fix the clubface.

I would argue that the ballflight you describe here indicates that you still haven't fixed the clubface.

Why?

1. A 'fixed' clubface should be square to the path.

2. If you square the clubface AND come OTT, then you will hit the ball way left.

3. Therefore, your clubface may be square to the target, but it is still OPEN with respect to you path. Your club face is NOT fixed.

I'd therefore extend Brian's logic from NSA.

You don't slice BECAUSE you swing OTT. [I'd emphasise something here: the ball flight you describe above is still a slice. Just because the ball starts at the target doesn't mean you aren't slicing it]
You swing OTT because your clubface is still open. That is, only an OTT move will get the face square to the target line, but it is still an open clubface (relative to path). Your OTT move is still a correction you are making because you haven't fixed the clubface; it is not the cause of your open clubface but an attempt to square it.

If you fix the clubface, you CAN still swing OTT, but you will hit the ball SO FAR LEFT that you will quickly learn how to stop swinging OTT.

So given the ball flight you describe, I still think you need to fix the clubface and not worry right now about OTT. If you come back here and tell us that you are hitting everything on a trajectory that starts left and goes further left, then it's possible that you have fixed the clubface, are still coming OTT, and need to work on fixing your OTT move all on its own. But until you get to that point, I think you still need to work on fixing the clubface.

 

[ColinMB]

Right, I understand what a slice is.

And I agree somewhat with what 'over the top does'. It's really an ugly thing no matter how you look at it.... I thought since I asked this question I would come back with my findings.

Well as I said earlier, my biggest problem is the driver. I know I still have a two fold problem of hanging the face open and twisting my shoulders around the ball rather than down the target line (inside path).

So I watched the video yet one more time... took notes even concentrating on stuff I needed.

I'm just going to say right off the bat that in my practice swings, it felt really weird. Starting that coil in your wrists (twistaway) is a very foreign feeling to me. It's is...like many things in golf... uncomfortable! But I got over it.

I don't want to bore you guys with stuff you've heard a million times but I was totally blown away! I could not believe it. The irons had an immediate, lower, piercing trajectory with almost no divot! I liked it... a lot. I play forged mizuno's and I love the feedback and a lot of what I was feeling was really positive, not to mention the sound which was also positive reinforcement.

I felt like a giddy kid as I anxiously moved up to driver. The first few shots I sliced... a bit of a head scratcher. I stepped back, and used Brian's check points. I found the 'leak' in the back swing. I wasn't twisting away quite enough.

You know that 'hit the box' drill? That's probably the biggest one for me. My instructor was on hand and confirmed what I was doing during my _worst_ swings. I bail out on the follow through, and fall back since doing this! It was getting me a tad upset, as it was an instant indication that I was lifting the club too soon, opening the face and would result in a weak punt with the driver.

I eventually fixed this by -trusting- the 'hit the box', and 'right shoulder underplane'. Then things really started rolling. I was cooking irons a bit too far left, so I was lightening the 'twist away' with driver, and I shouldn't have.

One thing I noticed instantly about Brian's method that has a domino effect, and it answers my first question... it pretty much FORCES you to come from the inside, which is awesome. Why? Well I soon learned if I am coming down to the ball with my left hand flat to target (hitting into box as well) and I come over the top too much, that ball is GONE left and not coming back anytime soon.

So I learned within half an hour.. I swear no longer than that, that coming inside would result in a straight hit with an aggressively closing face. With these two pieces of the puzzle clicking together, I was probably making the furthest, drawing, drives in my short golfing career.

I have to laugh because I swear to you I was hitting so far, and it just felt so good I kept going until I couldn't hit anymore! My back was finished, and I couldn't stop myself from coming over the top due to fatigue.. Finally I had to call it a night.

It wasn't all perfect of course. This will take time to ingrain naturally. I definitely have to dial it up for driver, and turn it down a bit for irons. However, the worst shots would happen when I wouldn't follow right through... I'd lose a bit of balance and fall on my back foot. My body does stay behind the ball and my shoulder drops but it's like I wouldn't push my right shoulder down the line long enough to make it a perfect ball strike.

Worst part with my irons is I would go through moments of hitting waay too far left, and some clumps of shots would be too thin. No chunking though! So I'd rather see myself thin a shot (which again I diagnose as coming up too fast in the follow through like my driver problem).

Sorry for the really long winded post. I appreciate all the advice. I can see that this has instantly changed things for me. I have even loosened my grip a bit, which feels sooo much better.

It's is a bit awkward starting the backswing with a right wrist hinge, but I'll get used to it. I also don't quite know where my iron shots are going, but this is an awesome start.

I am very pleased with what happened tonight, and maybe most of all I see now how the aggressive face closing actions are so closely tied to coming inside on the ball.

Sorry again for the long post. It's just really relieving to see... progress!! After being so frustrated for months.

 

[Rastabudd]

Actually, for me, this is a good read, as your problems and progress is very similar to mine. A bad case of shanks and loss of confidence brought me to this site, and I ended up studying NSA as well. My driver problems sounds a lot worse than yours, however. It got to a point where no matter how conscious I was about coming over the top, I would still do it, and end up catching the ball on the extreme heel of my driver.

NSA, especially the twistaway, has put me back on track. My long irons were pretty solid this past week. I've found that I need a strong twistaway on my backswing--stronger in the driver, hybrid, and longer irons than in 7-iron and up.
That "magic move" seems to at least keep my clubface square, and as long as I don't do something stupid like swing hard and come over the top, my shots are serviceable, if not very solid. I always try to visualize that section of NSA where Mr. Manzella is showing how Mr. Mallory is lagging the sweetspot and the position of his shoulder and elbow.

Like you, I still find how I can apply these swing thoughts to my driver. I had a few good drives, but I still had several of my famous heel-shot slices and a couple of pulled pop-ups (which I've never seen before)...It's amazing how many ball marks are nowhere near the sweetspot of my driver!

Anyways, good luck to you.

 

[Jared Willerson]

Recently I went back to a more NSA/Building Blocks move without the massive twistaway. Hit it better than I have in a while.

Regarding twistaway. While performing this I tend to twist in such a way that the shaft is vertical.....I was not keeping the club on an inclined plane enough, so I incorporated a little of the Building Blocks cock the left wrist up the plane and BOOM instant swing transformation.

 

[tank]

I went to the range yesterday for the first time in a long while, and hit the first 15 or so balls like a complete spazz. After reviewing what I was doing, I realizing that I was swinging from the inside just fine, but I was continuing to trace my plane line too far to the right and opening my clubface through the ball (kind of vertical hinging).

I simply concentrated on the "swinging under the stick before and after contact", and that was all I need to start compressing the ball and hitting it straight and long.

This feel may help with your open face shanks and slices.

 

[ColinMB]

Tank, that's pretty much the quickest way of describing my biggest issue right now. Swinging under the stick is probably the best way of summing it up. Though I still relate it to hitting the box because if I'm at impact in that position... well the rest seems to just happen. I mean to say that I can't 'hit the box' unless my right shoulder is driving under the swing plane (or stick) and through the shot (the 'box' is placed after impact).

The funny thing is the -other half of the problem- which was the open face isn't much of an issue even after half an hour of practicing Brian's technique. Pretty awesome.

After so many swing ideas, books etc, you can get pretty skeptical. I think this worked for me faster than I anticipated. The rest is just making it feel more natural.

Rasta, It's good to see other people getting something out of my frustrations. I have felt 'close' to a good, solid swing for a while and this stuff has filled some gaps. I'm still a very new golfer but I've had instruction since my first months which I am very thankful now as it gives you solid fundamentals. Brian's stuff, I have to admit, makes you think very differently about what's wrong, and why I do it.

For instance, thinking of going 'over the top' as a subconscious way of compensating for an open face is pretty weird, but eye opening. Conversely after doing Brian's method, I've been pretty much left with the opposite thought of: since the face is closing aggressively, I darn well better get UNDER plane or I'm going to lose this shot waaay left. That's pretty cool.

Also I have the advantage of having a pro watch me swing. He was instantly surprised at how my right shoulder was driving down, and through the shot very consistently. It's nice to have someone watch your mechanics because I know for myself, sometimes I think I'm doing something, but I'm not. (Also before I hit the range I put in a few hours of swinging without a ball with mirrors for Brian's check points and body mechanics.)

 

[tank]

Tank, that's pretty much the quickest way of describing my biggest issue right now. Swinging under the stick is probably the best way of summing it up. Though I still relate it to hitting the box because if I'm at impact in that position... well the rest seems to just happen. I mean to say that I can't 'hit the box' unless my right shoulder is driving under the swing plane (or stick) and through the shot (the 'box' is placed after impact).

Hey Colin, I'm happy to see that you are having such immediate positive results with Brian's teachings. As you have realized, you will spend a lot less and learn a lot more around here than anywhere else.

I believe that the "swing under the stick before and after impact" feel is intended to be very different from the "hit the box with the entire shaft" feel. For me the former promotes more early swivel (or continuing to close the face through impact), where the latter promotes less swivel through impact and a later crossing over of the hands.

I think that's why the "swing under the stick" helps you to stop slicing, and the "hit the box" helps you if your ball starts going too far left.

If what you are doing is working for you, keep doing it ... but if you find that the face is not squaring through impact enough or you are not releasing the club, you might give the "swing under the stick" feel a try.