On Homer's TGM...

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PJH

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I lifted the following from another website, but thought it was interesting enough to reprint here:

KX-13g
Golf Addict
Posts: 127
Posted: 06/11/04 2:31:53 PM

So much has been said and written about “The Golfing Machine” by Homer Kelly, that I recently spent some vacation time studying the book in order to discover for myself what all the fuss was about. What follows are some comments about the book based on my combined experiences of 40 years as a golfer, during which time I achieved some measure of competence, and 30 years as a scientist, during time which I read, wrote, and reviewed hundreds of scientific papers. While I am neither a physicist nor an engineer (Kelly wasn’t either), I have directed both and reviewed books and papers in both domains.

This book was self-published by Kelly in 1969, with several revisions thereafter. The edition I read was published in 1982 and is, I believe, the most common. It is said to be the product of 28 years of work. Indeed, it reads as though the author thoroughly understands its content but is having trouble relating it to his reader. This trait is common among scientific authors, which is why good editors are so valuable. Regrettably, Kelly did not choose to employ one. Both the book and its readers would have benefited immeasurably.

Kelly’s overall concept is that the body is a machine, and the mind is a computer. While this concept was popular in Kelly’s time, it is less so today, in part because of recent shortcomings in the area of artificial intelligence and in part because of a less rigid view of human anatomy. Contemporary thought would conclude that many of his unstated assumptions, like the linearity of muscle action, are gross oversimplifications.

The book is a notoriously difficult read, and this difficulty arises for a number of reasons. First, the book is said to be an “encyclopedia” and, hence, not intended to be read from first page to last. The Preface specifies a particular reading order, and its bewildering effect is exacerbated by the author’s introduction of a number of new terms. This in itself is not unusual (nearly all scientists seek to develop their own vocabularies), but Kelly does not define his terms in an orderly manner. The reading order demands that the reader understand new terms before they have been defined. Finally, the book is replete with internal references that have the reader bouncing from one section to another. The book must be read several times to even begin to penetrate the circular referencing.

However, for the resolute among us who simply refuse defeat, the book is fascinating. In the author’s view the golf swing is an embedded lever system with power focused at four different body parts (“accumulators”) and delivered at four different “pressure points”. He catalogs 24 different swing components, each having several variations. His central thesis is that no individual variation is necessarily ‘wrong’, but its use must be balanced by other complementary variations. His goal is an “uncompensated” golf swing where all of the variations are in harmony. To this end he outlines two swing patterns, one for “hitters” and one for “swingers”, which are examples of such an uncompensated swing. Presumably, there are others.

No author could catalog the entire universe of golf swing components, and Kelly doesn’t either. His catalog is based on several fixed essentials, some of which are specified and some of which aren’t. The first essential is the requirement for a still head. He is quite insistent on this point, because a still head is required for his “lever assembly” to move in a circle. Unfortunately, a still head, while perhaps desirable, is not employed by any golfer anywhere, and the golf swing is decidedly not circular. Theodore Jorgensen notes in “The Physics of Golf” that the head not only moves during the swing, but its movement is as unique to each golfer as his signature.

Another essential, but one only partially stated, is the requirement for a straight back. The author says that rotation around a straight back defines a straight plane line. Here, I must agree in principle but disagree in practice. First, the spine is not straight to begin with but curved in two directions. Second, the requirement eliminates the potential use of a rearward tilted spine, which most experts recommend at least for the driver and many employ for all clubs.

A third requirement, and not one overtly stated, is that the hands must be in a ‘single plane’ setup at address. Such a setup requires the club to be in line with the trail forearm when viewed from the rear. While numerous advocates have been highly vocal in their support of this setup, and one public corporation established to promote it, almost no one whose income depends on their performance employs it. My own experience is that the theoretical mechanical advantage of the single plane setup is an illusion.

Finally, the most controversial imperative is that the left wrist must be flat at contact. On this point I think most instructors would agree. But in the same breath they would have to acknowledge that one of the most accurate ball strikers in history, Ben Hogan, did not have a flat left wrist at contact and, in fact, advocated a bowed and arched wrist. I would like to believe that Kelly is merely arguing against the bent wrist position achieved by all too many beginners who hit with their hands. However, he hints over and over that the golf motion would be a whole lot easier if the lead wrist were not only flat at contact but at other points of the swing, as well. He notes that if the wrist bends when ****ed at the top, the golfer’s sense of feel loses its geometric basis. Once again, the author gets into trouble, since common practice undermines the conclusion. Very few professionals employ a flat wrist at the top. In fact, the most notable exception, Tiger Woods, is currently demonstrating the shortcomings of such a position when using longer clubs. My own experience is quite consistent.

In spite of these shortcomings, however, the book can be very useful, particularly for players and instructors with a penchant for video analysis. I have found it more helpful in diagnosing swing problems than other books of its ilk. I was able to pick up a serious problem with my shoulder plane, for example, something I had heretofore never considered. The rest of my swing was more or less consistent with the “swinger” model, but a flat shoulder plane was leading to premature release and a profound hook. While I have not totally found a cure, the book at least helped me diagnose the disease.

My final comment is one of caution. I mentioned above that the structure of the book is one of circular self-reinforcement. At first, like a well-locked door, it appears impenetrable. Later as you gain entry, that same structure traps you. “The Golfing Machine” is somewhat dangerous in its ability to envelope the reader with circular reinforcement. It’s like a building whose walls and ceilings appear straight when viewed from inside, but whose overall structure tilts when viewed from a distance. Removal of a single support causes the building to collapse to the surprise of everyone trapped inside. Any one of the shortcomings outlined above, as well as others, could have that effect.

So while I think there is much of value in the book, and I have benefited from its study, “The Golfing Machine” is not the whole picture. It is one view. As a technical manual, it has too many hidden assumptions to be considered authoritative. I prefer, instead, to view it as a work of science, and as such it is no more (or less) correct than any other theory. Followers of science need always to remember that no theory is exact, and regardless of how overtly convincing, exists to be tested, disproved, and replace by a better one. This continuous process strengthens our understanding and is the true nature of science. “The Golfing Machine” is a valuable contribution to that process.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Copy this back to him:

Hello Mr. KX-13g!

I just love those internet names.

My REAL name is Brian Manzella.

I have attained The Golfing Machine's highest designation for Authorized Instructors, G.S.E.D. but there are a few who know the book better than I.

I am also PGA Member AND I have helped as many hackers escape hackerdom as anyone else alive the last 20 odd years.

I am the 2003 Kentucky PGA Teacher of The Year and trust me, I didn't win because of politics. I don't use 'em ;).

I am not an apologist for anyone, however, nor anyone's yes man. Trust me, ask anyone on this silly internet.

I HAVE studied everyone worth studying and seen 'em ALL teach or talk live. Or debated them.

So, just for fun—and effect—I will just HAVE TO take your little review apart, and then let guys like holenone and mizunojoe and David Laville disect you as well.

I'd pay to have mikestloc spend a minute with your review....I might just buy him lunch so he will.

But for now, you get the Itallian Stallion.

This review in no way represents the views of either the PGA of America or The Golfing Machine, LLC. My apologies in advance to these organizations....but I couldn't resist

Here goes: Brian in Bold :D

KX-13g
Golf Addict
Posts: 127
Posted: 06/11/04 2:31:53 PM

So much has been said and written about “The Golfing Machine” by Homer Kelly, that I recently spent some vacation time studying the book STUDYING?..as in you spent the weekend 'studying' Offensive Football so you could intelligently comment on Mike Martz' offensive scheme?...I read The Golfing Machine EVERY DAY for 5 years before I spent a week with Ben Doyle and found out I knew very little. in order to discover for myself what all the fuss was about. What follows are some comments about the book based on my combined experiences of 40 years as a golfer, during which time I achieved some measure of competence, and 30 years as a scientist, during time which I read, wrote, and reviewed hundreds of scientific papers. While I am neither a physicist nor an engineer (Kelly wasn’t either), I have directed both and reviewed books and papers in both domains. I sure hope those reviews were better researched.

This book was self-published by Kelly in 1969, with several revisions thereafter. The edition I read was published in 1982 and is, I believe, the most common. It is said to be the product of 28 years of work. Indeed, it reads as though the author thoroughly understands its content but is having trouble relating it to his reader. This trait is common among scientific authors, which is why good editors are so valuable. Regrettably, Kelly did not choose to employ one. Both the book and its readers would have benefited immeasurably. Unlike other engineers, educated golf instructors, like myself, work almost strictly 'in the field.' Homer knew this and wanted to keep the book carry-around size. He said often it would have been EASIER to write several volumes.

Kelly’s overall concept is that the body is a machine Nope. He SUGGESTED that if the GOLFER thought of his BODY as a machine it might be easy to escape old habits. But this was, like eveything else in the book—optional., and the mind is a computer. While this concept was popular in Kelly’s time, it is less so today, in part because of recent shortcomings in the area of artificial intelligence and in part because of a less rigid view of human anatomy. Contemporary thought would conclude that many of his unstated assumptions, like the linearity of muscle action, are gross oversimplifications. Contemporary thought? Like David Leadbetter? Like Pete Egoscue? Like Jack Kuykendall? ???

The book is a notoriously difficult read, and this difficulty arises for a number of reasons. First, the book is said to be an “encyclopedia” and, hence, not intended to be read from first page to last. The Preface specifies a particular reading order, and its bewildering effect is exacerbated by the author’s introduction of a number of new terms. This in itself is not unusual (nearly all scientists seek to develop their own vocabularies), but Kelly does not define his terms in an orderly manner. The reading order demands that the reader understand new terms before they have been defined. Finally, the book is replete with internal references that have the reader bouncing from one section to another. The book must be read several times to even begin to penetrate the circular referencing. See above + Kelley only added items because NO ONE ELSE HAD NAMED THEM OR EVEN FOUND THEM YET!!!!!!!!

However, for the resolute among us who simply refuse defeat, the book is fascinating. In the author’s view the golf swing is an embedded lever system with power focused at four different body parts (“accumulators”) and delivered at four different “pressure points”. He catalogs 24 different swing components, each having several variations. His central thesis is that no individual variation is necessarily ‘wrong’, but its use must be balanced by other complementary variations. His goal is an “uncompensated” golf swing where all of the variations are in harmony. To this end he outlines two swing patterns, one for “hitters” and one for “swingers”, which are examples of such an uncompensated swing. Presumably, there are others. Yup. A few trillion of 'em.

No author could catalog the entire universe of golf swing components, and Kelly doesn’t either. His catalog is based on several fixed essentials, some of which are specified and some of which aren’t. The first essential is the requirement for a still head. He is quite insistent on this point, because a still head is required for his “lever assembly” to move in a circle. Unfortunately, a still head, while perhaps desirable, is not employed by any golfer anywhere, and the golf swing is decidedly not circular. Theodore Jorgensen notes in “The Physics of Golf” that the head not only moves during the swing, but its movement is as unique to each golfer as his signature. What a joke. There are 10 million golfers with a still head, some can play at the PGA Tour level and some can't bust 100. I have taught both a still head and a still base of the neck (moving head) and both work fine and Mr. Kelley says this in the book. Why don't you read it some more. I have Mr. Jorgensen's book and it is excellent and I thought it backed up Kelley in almost every way.

Another essential, but one only partially stated, is the requirement for a straight back. The author says that rotation around a straight back defines a straight plane line. Nowhere does it say a straight back is ESSENTIAL. He lists 3 essentials and it ain't one of them. Also the straight plane line related to the straight spine is ??? where? Homer says the straight back...is easier..it is...ever give 25,00 golf lessons?Here, I must agree in principle but disagree in practice. First, the spine is not straight to begin with but curved in two directions. Second, the requirement eliminates the potential use of a rearward tilted spine, which most experts recommend at least for the driver and many employ for all clubs. Here is where you lost ALL credibility. AXIS TILT is all over the book. Oh....maybe you didn't know that AXIS TILT was a rearward titled spine but it says so in the book. Have you read the book?

A third requirement, and not one overtly stated, is that the hands must be in a ‘single plane’ setup at address. Again NOWHERE does it say any such thing. See -hands only- plane. Such a setup requires the club to be in line with the trail forearm when viewed from the rear. While numerous advocates have been highly vocal in their support of this setup, and one public corporation established to promote it, almost no one whose income depends on their performance employs it. Of the top of my head I could name several, but start with Stuart Appleby, Steve Elkington, Charles Howell.My own experience what would that experience be? Mine is 25,000 hours of teaching plus 25,000 more of study, PLUS the 25 minutes WASTED time writing this reviewis that the theoretical mechanical advantage of the single plane setup is an illusion. My experience says EXACTLY the opposite.

Finally, the most controversial imperative is that the left wrist must be flat at contact. On this point I think most instructors would agree. But in the same breath they would have to acknowledge that one of the most accurate ball strikers in history, Ben Hogan, did not have a flat left wrist at contact and, in fact, advocated a bowed and arched wrist. hahahahahahahahaha HA! Homer says that arched is fine and is extra prevention of what your wrist most surely does I would like to believe that Kelly is merely arguing against the bent wrist position achieved by all too many beginners who hit with their hands. However, he hints over and over that the golf motion would be a whole lot easier if the lead wrist were not only flat at contact but at other points of the swing, as well. He notes that if the wrist bends when cocked at the top, the golfer’s sense of feel loses its geometric basis. Once again, the author gets into trouble, since common practice undermines the conclusion. Very few professionals employ a flat wrist at the top. WHAT??? How about Snead, Nelson, Mickey Wright, Nicklaus, Player, Palmer, Weiskoff, Miller, Watson, Woods, Toms, Mickelson??????In fact, the most notable exception, Tiger Woods, is currently demonstrating the shortcomings of such a position when using longer clubs. WHAT??? Woods won 11 majors and 30-some tour events and THE GRAND SLAM with the flatest wrist in golfMy own experience is quite consistent.

In spite of these shortcomings, however, the book can be very useful, particularly for players and instructors with a penchant for video analysis. Sir, I was one of the VERY first teachers in the world to use video EVERY LESSON. I still own and use my several camcorders but I gave 14 lessons the other day and used it twice for about two minutes total BECAUSE I CAN FIX GOLFERS B E C A U S E I KNOW THE BOOK A BITI have found it more helpful in diagnosing swing problems than other books of its ilk. Books of its ILK???? LIke what? Practical Golf? PerfectImpact? The Only Golf Lesson You'll Ever Need? I was able to pick up a serious problem with my shoulder plane, for example, something I had heretofore never considered. The rest of my swing was more or less consistent with the “swinger” model, but a flat shoulder plane was leading to premature release and a profound hook. Nope. Your flat shoulder plane did nothing to cause any hook of yours. WHEW!While I have not totally found a cure, the book at least helped me diagnose the disease. Sir, I point you to a very good web site: Dictionary.com A good place to read the definition of D I A G N O S E....whew again!

My final comment is one of caution. I mentioned above that the structure of the book is one of circular self-reinforcement. At first, like a well-locked door, it appears impenetrable. Later as you gain entry, that same structure traps you. “The Golfing Machine” is somewhat dangerous in its ability to envelope the reader with circular reinforcement. It’s like a building whose walls and ceilings appear straight when viewed from inside, but whose overall structure tilts when viewed from a distance. Removal of a single support causes the building to collapse to the surprise of everyone trapped inside. Any one of the shortcomings outlined above, as well as others, could have that effect. Totally and completely wrong. Homer himself says that ANYTHING can be used if properly compensated for, that is perhaps, including reading your 'review'...

So while I think there is much of value in the book, and I have benefited from its study, “The Golfing Machine” is not the whole picture. It is one view. As a technical manual, it has too many hidden assumptions to be considered authoritative. Name ONE..one...1.....I prefer, instead, to view it as a work of science, and as such it is no more (or less) correct than any other theory. Where is the theory in this book?Followers of science need always to remember that no theory is exact, and regardless of how overtly convincing, exists to be tested, disproved, and replace by a better one. This continuous process strengthens our understanding and is the true nature of science. “The Golfing Machine” is a valuable contribution to that process.

My review of your review:

The author of this review, while posessing some writing skill, possesses next to no level of understanding of the golf swing or Homer Kelley's book.

Don't bother...two thumbs down

Another 100 to nothing Manzella victory.....good thing I can't get banned from my own site
:);)
 
Nice reply Brian.
FGI is a waste of time, it's a breeding ground of TGM hate. From what I read on that site, you either "get it" or you "rip it." TGM does not need to be dragged into the ground by these hapless, miserable souls. TGM needs to reach more golfers and FGI is not the place for it.
 

fdb2

New
Wow. Are you people nice. From what I read of the post was that this individual has read "the book" and found it difficult. I think Mr. Manzella did indeed agree with that statement when he wrote that he spent many years going over " the book's" contents. There were other technical statements where disagreement arouse, but I'm not expert enough to comment.

Here's my point. I really don't think anyone was damning Kelley's writing. I think here was an individual who truly wanted to express beliefs and maybe bring clarity to his mind.

Now if this individual was trying to improve and in effect was called a loser: ( Brian 100 vs. ---- 0 ) Why would he or possibly people like myself seek out help from some of the instructors on this forum? Possibly his reply could represent an opportunity to compile articles into a book form, simplify some of Homer's teachings, and help others interested in TGM along with personal PROFIT. ( this is win/win versus win?lose)
 
quote:Originally posted by fdb2

Wow. Are you people nice. From what I read of the post was that this individual has read "the book" and found it difficult. I think Mr. Manzella did indeed agree with that statement when he wrote that he spent many years going over " the book's" contents. There were other technical statements where disagreement arouse, but I'm not expert enough to comment.

Here's my point. I really don't think anyone was damning Kelley's writing. I think here was an individual who truly wanted to express beliefs and maybe bring clarity to his mind.


Now if this individual was trying to improve and in effect was called a loser: ( Brian 100 vs. ---- 0 ) Why would he or possibly people like myself seek out help from some of the instructors on this forum? Possibly his reply could represent an opportunity to compile articles into a book form, simplify some of Homer's teachings, and help others interested in TGM along with personal PROFIT. ( this is win/win versus win?lose)

FDB2 is right, you know. Your little tirade makes you come off as arrogant, rather than instructive. You remind me of Il Duce strutting around on the balcony. :(
 
As Brian noted, this person said that he "spent some vacation time" studying the book. I spent SOME of the last 21 yrs studying the book, and just recently found out that I didn't have the definition of 'level wrist' exactly right.
 
"What follows are some comments about the book based on my combined experiences of 40 years as a golfer, during which time I achieved some measure of competence, and 30 years as a scientist, during time which I read, wrote, and reviewed hundreds of scientific papers. While I am neither a physicist nor an engineer (Kelly wasn’t either), I have directed both and reviewed books and papers in both domains."

Somebody claiming to be a scientist that reviews a body of work such as TGM under the guise of an internet forum name deserves to get blasted.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
You guys kill me....

I KNOW what I sound like...for crying out loud, I have been listening to myself for 42 years!

I like me just the way I am.

For the LAST TIME:

The golf business and the PGA are FULL (That's F - U - L - L) of guys who DON'T tell it "like it is".

Rush Limbaugh, Steven A. Smith, PARDON THE INTERRUPTION, Howard Cosell, etc etc etc....all got rich AND GOT THE MIKE doing a Brian Manzella-like routine.

The guy wrote a HORRIBLE REVIEW...I ripped 'em.

If anyone doesn't like it, I am very sorry.

But........I was right....;)!
 

fdb2

New
Yes Brian, you're right. Did you achieve your objective?? Get any new business?? Help anyone??????
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Yes I am.

Yes I did.

I have 11 lessons today...a few TOO MANY, actually.

Yes I did. I told the guy what someone should have on FGI. I LIKE debating...so I helped myself practice defeating easy opponents...

....NEWS FLASH: This is MY site. When I post a bunch, MY hits are up there with any site about instruction...I am NOT listed on Google, I don't advertise...I RIP only when it is deserved.

Tell you what...tell KX-13g I'll give him a free lesson anytime.
 

cdog

New
Njmp, your certainly allowed to have and express an opinion, but i think FGI is just the place to get more people into TGM, afterall, it was there i met Brain.
What is wrong with questioning someone? fact is, when someone give an answer to a question using TGM talk, they should be questioned!
i went to a conference given by Brain, he stated he read everything and anything about golf and the swing, why shouldnt we all do that?
The problem at FGI is the tone many from TGM take, it doesnt bother me, but many are bothered by it, it turns them off.
So instead of bad talking people at FGI, wouldnt it be more productive to show them the light????
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
cdog...i'm a member @ FGI and it is where i learned about TGM, this site, and Brian. It is really hard to try and convince some of the posters there are TGM styles and with the arguements that arise everything gets a wrong view of it.
 

EdZ

New
well said steve.....

If TGM is the easiest way to teach the average person, I've yet to see anyone describe it well enough for them to 'get it' (Brian, you are far better than most at this, but that attitude isn't going to win you many friends IMO - let your teaching speak for itself and please, Rush isn't the kind of BS model you should emulate, talk about a joke....

Instruction is a big game of 'telephone' - everyone seems to see the same thing, described in different words....

I think TGM is a great addition to golf.... physics, geometry... but lacking in anatomy and clarity for the average golfer.

Get back to setup, balance and tempo, focus on target, and understand lag pressure
 
My golf game improved more from Brian's posts on FGI(and now here) and a couple of lessons from Danny Elkins than the years I spent wasting to other uninformed, unscientific advice, and tips. I think Brian is right to blast the guy if what he is stating is mis-informed or outright wrong, he should be criticized. I wish someone had blasted all those poor instructors I wasted $$ on and took bad advice from. Flat wrist, lag, swing plane, I've found no one else anywhere who was as right on as Homer..
 
quote:Originally posted by brianman

You guys kill me....

I KNOW what I sound like...for crying out loud, I have been listening to myself for 42 years!

I like me just the way I am.

For the LAST TIME:

The golf business and the PGA are FULL (That's F - U - L - L) of guys who DON'T tell it "like it is".

Rush Limbaugh, Steven A. Smith, PARDON THE INTERRUPTION, Howard Cosell, etc etc etc....all got rich AND GOT THE MIKE doing a Brian Manzella-like routine.

The guy wrote a HORRIBLE REVIEW...I ripped 'em.

If anyone doesn't like it, I am very sorry.

But........I was right....;)!
Now that's funny. Perhaps....you're doing their routines??? I hope beacuse this is an internet forum and me being deprived of reading your body language and speaking tones (and not knowing you) that you're half kidding. Lord knows I need all the swing help I can get and I don't subscribe to any method at all. But if you weren't kidding, you would be the last guy I'd come to for help (and I'm in my 30's and all for busting someone balls in a good natured way).

But I know, you like you just the way you are.....
;)
 
quote:Originally posted by cdog

Njmp, your certainly allowed to have and express an opinion, but i think FGI is just the place to get more people into TGM, afterall, it was there i met Brain.
What is wrong with questioning someone? fact is, when someone give an answer to a question using TGM talk, they should be questioned!
i went to a conference given by Brain, he stated he read everything and anything about golf and the swing, why shouldnt we all do that?
The problem at FGI is the tone many from TGM take, it doesnt bother me, but many are bothered by it, it turns them off.
So instead of bad talking people at FGI, wouldnt it be more productive to show them the light????

Of course I am not talking ill of the righteous, the good, the polite, they know who they are. They need not fear. The non-TGM posters, the swing teachers and their flunkies do battle with over zealous TGM types on a daily bases. Non TGMers feel peril and TGMers, some anyway, slam back and embarrass the book in the eyes of the “outside world.”

Many have tried to show the light, some like Martee, have the patience to conduct himself above the fray. But some try to shed light on vampires and TGM pays the price with a black eye.
 
Anyone that prefaces their review of "TGM" by Homer with that much pomposity leaves themselves exposed to getting called out and blasted, especially if they are that far off the mark. I don't think there is any bullying going on hear. Brian gets similar treatment! I've seen posts where he's been addressed similarly.
 
I don't think Mr. KX-13g is the original author of that "review". I stumbled across the same thing virtually verbatim 2 or 3 years ago doing a search for The Golfing Machine. IMO it is something that an individual or group of individuals came up with to detract from TGM and I would say it works. I am a pretty sharp guy and that "review" was like the first thing i found on TGM and I decided it was probably a little deeper than i wanted to get into. But after finding Brian's name mentioned a couple of time, not realizing it had anything to do with TGM. I have already found 2 or 3 things on this forum that immediately made sense to me.

So in other words don't believe everything you read... and keep up the good work.
 
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