Once more about the hooks

[Frizit]

I have been fighting the hooks and pulls for well over a year now with no luck. My last lesson with Brian about a year ago I had developed a very steep VSP in my pathetic attempt to swing more left. He had me work on getting more open with the hips and shoulders at impact but I'm still struggling with that.

Since that time I have fixed the VSP issues but I still struggle with hooks and pulls. So basically I'm kinda at a loss at what to do. I know for a fact my path is close enough to zero where I shouldn't be hitting 30 yard hooks with a 6 iron. So I would think I obviously have clubface issues which leads me to my questions.

In watching Never hook again for the umpteenth time I caught a comment which I believe was around the 3 minute mark about moving forward in the downswing which could be causing the hooks. Which makes me wonder if this could be part of my issue. I say this because I also have very inconsistent contact and don't take a ton of divots even though I have a -5 AoA with a 6 iron. I believe I have a tendency to stand up at impact at times creating some of this inconsistent contact.

So with all of this rambling I'm doing I guess I'm curious as to if all of this moving forward and up could be the real cause of my issues or should I look elsewhere?

 

[Todd Dugan]

When you "pull" the ball, without curvature, but leftward of the Target Line, assumimg center contact, it is because the Path is leftward of the Target Line. If your Path was "close enough to zero", you wouldn't produce this ball flight. When the ball hooks, assuming center contact, it is because the clubface is closed to the path. People who hook usually don't produce a leftward Path. So something isn't adding up here. What you perceive as a "pull" is probably more of a "pull draw", in which case your biggest issue is a clubface closed to the Path. Solutions: rotate hands leftward of clubface, rotate clubface rightward of Toe Line, rotate clubface rightward in backswing. Two of these comprise Hogan's anti-hook "secret".

 

[Lindsey Newman]

If the ball starts left of the target line without curve, then both FACE and path were left to some extent, depending on AoA. Otherwise there would be curve, correct?

 

[Todd Dugan]

If the ball starts left of the target line without curve, then both FACE and path were left to some extent, depending on AoA. Otherwise there would be curve, correct?

If ball doesn't curve, assuming center contact, then face was sqaure to path. AA has no bearing. And yes, both are left for a pull. In fact, both are the same when no curve. But Grizit is also compaining of hooks, which is due to face closed to path. This is what I would go after first.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

If ball doesn't curve, assuming center contact, then face was sqaure to path. AA has no bearing. And yes, both are left for a pull. In fact, both are the same when no curve. But Grizit is also compaining of hooks, which is due to face closed to path. This is what I would go after first.

Agreed. I mention AoA because that influences path/face and many times is not obvious on video.

 

[mjstrong]

Agreed. I mention AoA because that influences path/face and many times is not obvious on video.

AoA is the vertical component of path; it doesn't influence it.

Now, if we're saying that we are holding two of the 3 other variables (Horizontal Path, Vertical Plane, and Horizontal Plane) constant, and adjusting AoA, then you'll see some different resulting 4th variables.

As an example, if you hold Vertical and Horizontal Plane constant, but adjust Vertical Path (aka AoA) downward, then you get a more rightward Horizontal Path; Vertical Path upwards = Horizontal Path leftwards.

If you were to hold Horizontal Path and Vertical Plane constant, but adjusted Vertical Path downwards, you'd have a resulting Horizontal Plane that was more left, in order to achieve those other numbers.

Hmmm...this post of mine seems like half threadjacking, and half makemoreconfusing.

Am I allowed to post a link to an .xls file that I use as a calculator for these 4 variables?

 

[savydan]

I would say it this way:

HSP and VSP are thought more as "givens" or what comes first.

Then the AoA does influence how far the resultant horizontal path is left or right of the HSP.

But once you determine "path" or "horizontal path" or "resultant path" then AoA doesn't, so to speak, influence it because it already "came out in the wash."

But it will confuse people to make a blanket statement that AoA does not influence path because AoA is used when we walk through "how to determine resultant path."

But once someone has a resultant path, then, yes, you can think, THEN the AoA doesn't matter, but it DID matter in getting the resultant path whether you realize it or not. Again, if you assume that the HSP and VSP were givens (came first).

 

[mjstrong]

Yeah, I guess it depends on how you think about it; I know exactly what you're saying. If we are looking at the mathmatical relationships (this is how I'm wired), then the missing Plane/Path variable is calcuatable given the other 3.

If we are trying to get a real world example, I'm not sure I'd say Vertical and Horizontal Planes are given necessarily. If I'm standing over a ball in my setup, and decide to hit more down on my second shot than I did on my first, there will likely be a change in either/both of those Plane numbers, as well as the Paths. Alternatively, if I try and make the same swing (keeping my planes constant) in both shots, but move my ball position further back, I might just see both Path numbers change. Of course, since we do all kinds of micro-compensating things approaching impact, there is no real "all-else-being-equal" going on, but it always helps to theorize...

 

[ekennedy]

Angle of attack does matter. It always matters. If you hit four inches behind the ball, you may have a negative angle of attack according to Trackman and it will certainly influence direction. On the next swing, you miss the ground and hit the ball on the upswing. You may hit a fat pull hook on the first and a thin push slice on the other with a relatively square clubface.

It shows up mostly with fairway woods and long irons where a player has very little low-point control.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

My point was to remember that AoA can be influential. I was not saying all other variables being the same. To think that everything can remain the same when changing AoA would be foolish. I think the golf swing is more complex than that. What movements would one have to make to change the angle of attack? You don't think those movement would influence path and or face? Obviously, I have spent a lot of time on trackman and know a little, but I understand your points.

 

[Todd Dugan]

To determine Clubface to Path, you need to know Clubface and Path. Nothing else.
Now if all you had was Clubface, Vertical Plane, and Horizontal Plane, then yeah, you'd need to know Attack Angle to determine Path.

 

[wulsy]

4 interconnected variables = change 1 change em all, no?

savydan's hypothesis that VSP und HSP are the 2 which COULD be viewed as "givens" seems to make most sense to my (small) mind.

 

[savydan]

CP = HSP - AA [tan(90-VSP)]

Change 1, you need to change at least 1 other.

Generally, horizontal motion is independent of vertical motion. However, when we swing on an inclined plane, we “tie-in” horizontal and vertical motion.

When a ball rolls off the pitch of your roof, if we know its horizontal motion, we pretty much know its vertical motion, too, because there is a set angle to the pitch of the roof that ties these together.

The ball "knows" the true path variables: AoA & CP. They are instantaneous. The ball knows instantaneous.

The HSP and VSP form the plane. Brian's blue plane board. The angle-up is the VSP. The base direction is the HSP. You need at least some clubhead MOTION to form a plane. Can't be instantaneous. Otherwise it's just a point - not a plane.

What comes first? Technically, neither. But we don't think that way....

Have you ever heard someone say, "I'm hitting more down, so my path is more to the right." All the time, right?

Have you ever heard someone say, "I'm hitting more down, so my plane is more to the left." Probably, never, right?

That's what I'm getting at when I mentioned plane comes first, or a given. Just the way we typically think about it.

The ball knows instantaneous:

Path: AoA (vertical) & Club Path (horizontal)

Face: Dynamic Loft (vertical) & Face Angle (horizontal) (original Trackman terms, I think)

The ball really doesn’t know MOTION (before and after impact). But golfers do. Therefore HSP and VSP.