Our Project, our Scientists, our Science.......and a strike out.

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Brian Manzella

Administrator
We have this little project we are working on. It is called....

Project 1.68

There are 5 areas we are looking into and are reporting on, and teaching with, on our way to a publication.

They are:


1. What happens on a ideal ball-clubhead collision.​

2. The path & orientation of the clubhead to and through impact.

3. The Geometry of the Club and the ideal forces on it from the golfer.

4. How the body helps the golfer create these ideal force.

5. A real-world Classification System.



The Classification system now has a basic form. I did a decent amount of work on it last year and will fill in the blanks at the conclusion of our findings in the other areas.

We collected and reviewed a significant amount of data and research—along with conversations with multiple scientists—on the subject of impact. We have not finished this part of the project by any means, but feel we have enough information for now to put our time to use on the other areas.

In short, we found that the clubface does not rotate a significant amount during the impact interval and several other interest points of interest.

We have learned even more about the clubhead's path through the release phase of the swing, and its 3D path and 3D "point" of the clubface. Many of you have read our extensive reports on the "resultant path" (a term Mike Finney coined) and the D-Plane, along with viewing the most watched D-Plane video of all time, something I did off the cuff more than a year ago.

We now know how to adjust golf swings to hit straight shots, and what happens if you don't adjust and "swing straight."

We now know that compression is created by spin loft, which is simply the difference between the two vectors of the D-Plane.

I have traveled the country talking at conferences explaining these facts to pros who can then use the information to help golfers play their best.

We have learned about, and studied diligently, the angle of attack of the clubhead, especially at the PGA Tour level.

We apply this optimum angle of attack and resultant path in every lesson we give with the help of Doppler radar devices like TrackMan.



TrackMan measures: Clubhead Speed, Ball Speed, Smash Factor, Attack Angle, Launch Angle, Shot Height, Landing Angle, Club Path, Launch Direction, Carry, Hang Time, Swing Plane Angle, Spin Axis, Direction of Swing (plane base line) and Spin Rate.

TrackMan calculates the clubface orientation by measuring these parameters and applying the law of physics. This provides the orientation of the clubface at the point of impact on the clubface. This orientation of the clubface is 3 dimensional and are reflected in the data parameters “face angle” and “dynamic loft”. Even though that “face angle” and “dynamic loft” are derived numbers from direct measurements and a collision model, numerous robotic test has proven that this is indeed a very accurate calculation of “face angle” and “dynamic loft”.


So, in our teaching, the most important changes, the very things that we teach from our impact study—resultant path and angle of attack are directly measured by TrackMan.

And, when the day comes that there is a better machine, whether made by Trackman or another company, the facts of the resultant path, angle of attack, and smash factor will not change and neither will our teaching of it.


That means the folks that are talking about what TrackMan doesn't do apparently don't realize that the science that Project 1.68 has gleaned from the work of Theodore Jorgensen and Fredrik Tuxen is solid as a rock, and the swing that was taken at it was a big ole whiff....


Strike 1.



3D capture machines like the AMM, the MATT-T system, and the system designed by Rob Neal, produce basically two kinds of data: 1) The positional relationships of parts of the body as they move through space in the swing, and 2) The rates of accelerations and other movements as a function of time.

I once thought that a major reason the best swings were as good as they were because of my perceived quality of the work of the body—The Pivot, and the power that was produced from this movement. The 3D machines of today measure these rates of accelerations and other movements as a function of time in a way that produces—in the best golf swing—a kinematic sequence that has rapid acceleration and rapid decelerations. I used to refer to "dynamic pivots" as those who "snapped the chain" the best.

Since Mike Jacobs and I did some work on the release, I now believe that the intent and action on the club by the golfer can significantly influence the body's dynamics to and through impact - and I do not refer to "snapping the chain" in my teaching or writing at all.

More detailed study into this area of biomechanics has been done by Mike Finney and Jon Hardesty, along with Chris Como. They have found that the planes of motion of the body segments, along with other concepts like the instantaneous screw-axis, have called the basic accel/decel graph into serious question. Obviously, much more research and study will be done in this area before we make any assumptions or conclusions.

I have repeatedly said that our research in this area is still ongoing, and the most time we have spent in this area is with Mr. Art Maffei, a scientist who is an expert in the area of strength-to-weight ratios and very detailed acceleration calculations. He has never recommended to us that we should try to accel/decel in the manner portrayed in basic kinematic sequence graphs that proliferate the internet and have been suddenly, incorrectly, mis-representatively been applied to Project 1.68 when we have never used them for one second of our progress writings or our teaching since the beginning of the project.

Our primary use of 3D has been in the positional relationships of parts of the body as they move through space in the swing. Like how the right wrist works on the release phase of the swing and on toward the finish for example.

In this respect the 3D systems are far more accurate and reliable than rolling-shutter photography like the kind utilized in the Casio exilim line of high-speed cameras.


That means the folks that are talking about our supposed blessing of the "kinematic sequence" theory and accel/decel instruction, are mistakingly lumping us into a group we are not currently in, and has never been a part of our project. In fact our research into its feasibility came up very short and nowhere near conclusive. It was a just a poor guess by a critic and yet another—giant whiff....


Strike 2.



Additionally, even this positional 3D data has been used at this point in the project only to qualify how the body moves when it is putting force on the club.

This "force on the club" part of the project has been our primary focus for the last year, and it is mostly math and physics obtained from our study with Dr. Steven Nesbit, and his calculations and research funded by and done in cooperation with the USGA. Although very high end 3D capture was used in Dr. Nesbit's research, all of the "hub path" study has been verified in mathematic models, and is very consistent with the work of several other researchers over the years, like Dr. David Williams, K. Muira, and our great friend Aaron Zick.



The feeble attempt to discredit our work, along with the years of research and application by the world renowned scientists that have been so kind to assist us with our project, has been shown to be another short-sighted attempt by folks who have no idea the level of dedication, attention to detail, and desire to be the best that is exhibited by our group and the people that are assisting us.

Strike 3.



Project 1.68 is just one of a number of things that have been goals of mine and my pals for a long time. I have been very fortunate to make friends with a group of professionals who want nothing but to uncover the truths about the golf swing and the best ways to get people to accomplish them.

We get closer every day.

:)
 

lia41985

New member
From: googledocs

"An important component in generating club head velocity is the reducing radius path of the hands during the downswing. The study revealed a relatively strong correlation between a reducing radius path of the hands and skill level."

"The notion of delayed wrist motion to generate club head velocity is valid, however the mechanism to achieve it is based upon the path of the hands and the initial wrist angle, not a retarding wrist torque." —Nesbit



So why out-toss?
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From the January 2009 Trackman newsletter, there are three accuracy categories, actionable, marginal, and not-actionable. Is face angle actionable, marginal, or not actionable according to Mr. Tuxen or anyone else at Trackman (keeping in mind that a 1-2 degree variance, in other components, is at the outer bounds of being actionable)? What is the margin of error in the calculation of face angle?
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Why out toss? So you can store a fleeing clubhead and narrow ur hand path when it counts later. Ive read that you don't like the out toss but my guess is that you can't perform it, or just can't grasp it right now. Not everybody would need to consciously do it. IMO, you don't need a reduction in radius path of the hands until later in the downswing when your hands and arms need an assist. Nobody rotates like crazy from the top that I know of.

I've made the mistake of dismissing things that either didn't help my own game or I couldn't do. I try not to make that mistake anymore.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator

"An important component in generating club head velocity is the reducing radius path of the hands during the downswing. The study revealed a relatively strong correlation between a reducing radius path of the hands and skill level."

"The notion of delayed wrist motion to generate club head velocity is valid, however the mechanism to achieve it is based upon the path of the hands and the initial wrist angle, not a retarding wrist torque." —Nesbit



So why out-toss?

The reduction in the radius of the hand path is something that starts to happen mid-swing, but has its real effect in the release phase. It will be covered in depth at the AS2.

Like Nesbit says in your second quote, trying NOT to release is NOT how you create what you want.

.......

As to your "why the 'out-toss' " question, I did a video about it, but simply put, and illustrated below the golfer MUST create the pink force to prevent jackknifing, and most are trying to do the green force. The "out-toss" is a real move + a feeling based on those two vectors in the pic. The less you are doing the green, the less you need to up&out toss. BUT YOU HAVE TO DO THE PINK by hook or crook.

outtoss.jpg

From the January 2009 Trackman newsletter, there are three accuracy categories, actionable, marginal, and not-actionable. Is face angle actionable, marginal, or not actionable according to Mr. Tuxen or anyone else at Trackman (keeping in mind that a 1-2 degree variance, in other components, is at the outer bounds of being actionable)? What is the margin of error in the calculation of face angle?

Like I said, TrackMan's face angle calculations have NO BEARING on our project. None.

But, we will cover all of your concerns at the AS2, and I'll personally get you a copy of his answers.
 
Being a dinosaur, what I learned as ‘sequence’ (now kinematic sequence) and with the studies that are showing up, I have been wondering what Project 1.68 was going to address in this area.

“That means the folks that are talking about our supposed blessing of the "kinematic sequence" theory and accel/decel instruction”

I know for the purpose of illustration you have used images/videos of top golfers to convey the coupling point and it’s ~path. Many of the Kinematic Sequence studies have also used top golfers to develop their "kinematic sequence" theory and accel/decel instruction. Not sure the Kinematic Sequence Theory is based/focused on ‘Ideal’ but more to ‘Optimal’ given the current constraints of the golf method/styles and equipment of today.

Not to be argumentative, but it sounds as if the ‘Kinematic Sequence Theory’ is something that is not valid, the science may be flawed, etc., at least I think you might hear some argue from that position. Extremely crudely put, ‘If Project 1.68 didn’t say so, and then it isn’t’. I don’t think you are saying that, just that may be the way it comes across; maybe I have had too much TGM exposure.

Project 1.68 from what I have read here has focused on the impact and club and if I have read your posts here correctly, the body is still yet to be factored into Project yet.

The ideal of application of forces from the body to the club would seem to be a logical extension and the work scientific studies done to date seem like a smart starting pointing. In fact I believe that extension beyond the club itself has been touched on when the introduction of the ‘How To’ have been suggested to achieve the new release. I could be wrong but I am not sure we can isolate a single alignment, position, motion without having it impact another area in most cases.

I am quite interest in the ‘Kinematic Sequence Theory’ especially in regard to fitness training, my body is broke.:( So I await. :)
 
And, when the day comes that there is better machine, whether made by Trackman or another company, the facts of the resultant path, angle of attack, and smash factor will not change and neither will our teaching of it.

I would be very very cautious with statements like this. Never say never! No Scientist would every say something like this. Something which might be accepted 'knowledge' at some point might have to be corrected once new information becomes available. In Science you build a modal which explains the results of experiments. Once someone designs a new experiment where the result can't be explained by the current model the model needs to be modified or completely abandoned.

Since Albert Einstein it was common understanding that nothing can exceed the speed of light. Now there are experiments at CERN that might indicate that some particle can travel faster then light. These results will need to be verified by independent teams. If they come to the same conclusion that 'law of physics' that nothing travels faster then light needs to be changed!

This is not an attack on you or your findings. I think you are on the right way but statements like the one above only give your critics more ammunition.

In order to make the project 1.68 'water proof' an independent team of scientist would need to come to the same conclusions. At least that's how it would work in the science community. This will hopefully come over time but for now I start working on my new release ;-)
 
S

SteveT

Guest
As to your "why the 'out-toss' " question, I did a video about it, but simply put, and illustrated below the golfer MUST create the pink force to prevent jackknifing, and most are trying to do the green force. The "out-toss" is a real move + a feeling based on those two vectors in the pic. The less you are doing the green, the less you need to up&out toss. BUT YOU HAVE TO DO THE PINK by hook or crook.

View attachment 111

Brian, "outtoss" may be in a tangential direction, but the forces that creates the motion may, in part, be due to a small applied initial resistive torque at the hands (i.e. Class I lever) while the growing momentum of the downswing system pulls the club 'outwards'. Trying to decrease the angle between the lead forearm and clubshaft from the top, requires a counter-torque in the hands and rear elbow to 'hold the angle'.

I think the 'pink force' is a directional velocity vector and not a 'force'... as is the green arrow.

I suggest you give the ASII scientific team the questions I have offered regarding outtoss. They will clarify things once and for all.

Btw... I always thought that kinematics was the result of kinetics...
 
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Brian's picture is nice. That green line/arrow has been a problem for me, several have tried to assist me, in the end I just never got it.

Question on radius shortening-what are you referencing as the center? I do get the up and in but the shortening isn't something I really related to it.
 

joep

New
Once the pink arrow is extended away from you what is the next move(in detail) please...............this is the part I`m having trouble with.
 
S

SteveT

Guest
Once the pink arrow is extended away from you what is the next move(in detail) please...............this is the part I`m having trouble with.

If you want a more detailed scientific explanation, try reading:

A THREE DIMENSIONAL KINEMATIC AND KINETIC STUDY OF THE GOLF SWING

Steven M. Nesbit
Department of Mechanical Engineering, Lafayette College, Easton, PA, USA

Journal of Sports Science and Medicine (2005) 4, 499-519

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...&sig=AHIEtbTxlvSz1rEH3x9dPzxIHZQL01fUzw&pli=1

It's all there (in detail)....
 
Duh...Thanks Mike, I remember watching it, but for some reason I glossed over the info on center was more interested in the path rep. Guess I should go back again to the monster thread. Thanks
 
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