Out there in the "field"...things are a-changing.

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Brian Manzella

Administrator
All of the current fascination with centered pivots has made for some interesting things "out in the field."

Mike Jacobs and & I have noticed an influx of folks who can play a little, but have very poor pivots.

My "Code Name: Soft Draw" pattern was invented as a way to combat all the "check swings" I see out there.

When I was a young pup teacher back in the mid-80's, lots of folks had reverse pivots. I'd say about 7 or 8 out of 10. By 2000, it was maybe 2 of 10.

Now....6 to 7 of 10. I am not talking about new golfers, or poor golfers, I'm talking golfers shooting 68-84.

They are VERY centered, but have very soft impacts, and do all sorts of silly things they probably "cured" years ago.

We'll just fix 'em. ;)
 
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JeffM

New member
Brian - why is there such a large increase in "good" golfers (68-84) having a reverse pivot today compared to the year 2000? Is it solely due to the influence of Bennett/Plummer's GD articles?

Jeff.
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
bcoak said:
Not DL?
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Actually, DL's early (late 80's) teaching,when he was most influential, really focused on loading and using the right side. Nobody embodied that better than Faldo. They both peaked in 92. Then DL changed his idea of plane, then got a little weird, now he's a follower. He's come full circle to where now most of his juniors are de-lagged and stuck on their left sides. When Manzella takes over the tour, DL will drown in his wake and become an afterthought. :D
 
self-mastery

self-mastery

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I'm a good golfer that has been forced by an injury to stack and tilt. Wearing my soft cast and brace boat, I just got through practicing a centered pivot. I don't have any other option. Yesterday was my first day walking without crutches in 2 months, so whatever it takes (s&t with some ME/TT hand motion) I will be golfing for the first time in months this weekend.
 
Steve Khatib

Steve Khatib

Super Moderator
DL'S biggest influences are: early set, bent left wrist at top, bent back knee anchor and flipping through to follow through point.
 
Michael Jacobs

Michael Jacobs

Super Moderator
Brian Manzella said:
All of the current fascination with centered pivots has made for some interesting things "out in the field."

Mike Jacobs and & I have noticed an influx of folks who can play a little, but have very poor pivots.

My "Code Name: Soft Draw" pattern was invented as a way to combat all the "check swings" I see out there.

When I was a young pup teacher back in the mid-80's, lots of folks had reverse pivots. I'd say about 7 or 8 out of 10. By 2000, it was maybe 2 of 10.

Now....6 to 7 of 10. I am not talking about new golfers, or poor golfers, I'm talking golfers shooting 68-84.

They are VERY centered, but have very soft impacts, and do all sorts of silly things they probably "cured" years ago.

We'll just fix 'em. ;)
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Line Drawing has definitely helped this progression, everybody is trying to cover lines ......... when i have students who you can tell have had many teachers and lessons are in the video room they are just waiting for me to draw on them like they are
an etch - a - sketch......... By the way bulit a new video center here on Long Island, have a 45 inch flat screen ---- So Brian, we are out of the little room and now on the movie screen
 
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mew09golfer

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Poor pivot phenomena

To my thinking the phenomena to which Brian speaks (poor pivot) has something to do with the difficulty in which a 3-dimensional pivot is viewed in 2-dimensional media. For example, as pivot relates to weight shift, both are nearly impossible to determine by viewing a swing on TV, or print media.

The "wallop" of the pivot relates to the intertial mass of the body's core rotation. One can easily view the position of the hands, heads, and arms in a TV swing. For example, you can see the distance in the face-on-view that the hands extend away from the body. But, I find it impossible to determine to true magnitude of the pivot. And thus, it is nearly impossible to determine if the magnitude of weight shift on the back swing, or down swing, is sufficient.
 
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Steve Khatib

Steve Khatib

Super Moderator
Yes true, most pop instruction is made to be so tangible that any idiot can see the effects rather than the cause. Keeps me busy though, as all golfers have tense arms and no pivot as they are trying create effect instead of address the true cause. A duck in the water looks so graceful yet underneath the water his pivot is working soo hard!
 
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golfer24

New
mew09golfer said:
To my thinking the phenomena to which Brian speaks (poor pivot) has something to do with the difficulty in which a 3-dimensional pivot is viewed in 2-dimensional media. For example, as pivot relates to weight shift, both are nearly impossible to determine by viewing a swing on TV, or print media.


I disagree i can clearly see the actions of the pivot including weight shift when viewed with swing analysis software.
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Chris Sturgess

New member
How do these phenomenons like stack and tilt and the one plane swing get so much publicity and fame? They are both incredibly stupid an ineffective for the average golfer (and all golfers) imco* yet hugely popular.

*in my correct opinion (haha)
 
Dariusz J.

Dariusz J.

New member
Chris Sturgess said:
How do these phenomenons like stack and tilt and the one plane swing get so much publicity and fame? They are both incredibly stupid an ineffective for the average golfer (and all golfers) imco* yet hugely popular.

*in my correct opinion (haha)
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Incredibly stupid ? I bet you don't know anything about OP and S&T theories...a very childish post, sorry.
Incredibly stupid may be only people who want to apply swing patterns that do not match their DNA over dead bodies.
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
You could come up with any method and it would be good for someone. It's easy to sell a method. It's tough to do a magazine cover that says " I'll fix your slice, but everyone of you might need a different pattern."
 
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Chris Sturgess

New member
Dariusz J. said:
Incredibly stupid ? I bet you don't know anything about OP and S&T theories...a very childish post, sorry.
Incredibly stupid may be only people who want to apply swing patterns that do not match their DNA over dead bodies.
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I know a lot about hitting a 320 yard drive in the fairway. And I know a lot about average golfers hitting weak slices due to reverse pivoting. I know that leaning toward the target or even vertically at the top of the backswing will not help that at all. I know that Aaron Baddeley doesn't actually do what they claim he does. I know that Mike Weir uses stack and tilt to combat a hook. I know that it's really ineffective and awkward to be on the shaft plane at the top of the backswing. So that is where I'm coming from.
 
Dariusz J.

Dariusz J.

New member
Chris, that's the point - you give examples of golfers (beginners, slicers) who will never benefit from OP or S&T. However, there are golfers who, in a given stage of their golfing skills, will benefit from those theories. The problems happen, as I said, when a golfer wants over dead bodies to be like e.g. Tom Pernice or recent Mike Weir while he needs to use a completely different golf pattern.
Imagine a guy who needs to introduce a rotary motion of his/her body instead sliding...don't you think that those theories will help such a golfer ?

My interest in OP swing began 1 year ago and it still lasts. This theory helped me in ingraining some positive habits while swinging a club when it appeared my "own swing DNA" matches generally this pattern.
I am here, on Brian's Forum, now, as a golfer who does not want to learn everything from the beginning. I am just for ingraining refinements in my swing because of Brian's huge knowledge and huge intuition as well as open mind for many patterns. IMHO, neither Jim Hardy nor Mike Bennett will teach me e.g. how to educate hands or how to lag the sweetspot. I am also here to find, in nearest future, my (already established) pattern, my place, in Manzella Matrix and to master it with Brian's help.
If it happens here that I shall need to change my pattern - I'll have a small problem what to do and I am completely aware of this fact. Nevertheless, mastering golf is a constant battle that is a very pleasant thing, almost so pleasant as playing golf on the course. Thus, I am not afraid of learning my own golf truth, if I may say this way.

I apologize for a trivial post but I wanted to show that there are many ways to good golf and there are no stupid ones if one has open mind and a bit of intelligence and intuition.

Cheers
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
A thread gone awry.

The point to this thread was NOT to talk about other teachers, it was to talk about how CURRENT FADS in instruction, have to be addressed in the world of golf instruction.

Just as Flick/Toski begat Ballard, and so on....the current "trend" has help me creat the "Soft Draw" pattern.

Location 2 on the Manzella Matrix....

1 NSA • 2 SD • 3 DIR • 4 SF • 5 NHA :cool:
 
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