Overactive Lower Body, problem?

[ping_man]

I've been following this forum for a while, first post though! Anyway a bit of background: For the last couple of years I have only been able to play in the summer due to Uni and I think my golf swing has suffered. I'm a 10 handicap and right now my long game is pretty inconsistent and I'm unsure on where to start to improve it. People have always said I've got a decent swing but haven't really improved much. I have NSA NHA CoFF and I'm fairly short in distance and just wondering where I'm losing power from?
Here are some swings I videoed, sorry for quality, recorded on my iphone:

This went way left:

This was a bit right:

thanks for looking, Mike.

 

[art]

I've been following this forum for a while, first post though! Anyway a bit of background: For the last couple of years I have only been able to play in the summer due to Uni and I think my golf swing has suffered. I'm a 10 handicap and right now my long game is pretty inconsistent and I'm unsure on where to start to improve it. People have always said I've got a decent swing but haven't really improved much. I have NSA NHA CoFF and I'm fairly short in distance and just wondering where I'm losing power from?
Here are some swings I videoed, sorry for quality, recorded on my iphone:

This went way left:

This was a bit right:

thanks for looking, Mike.[/QUOTE}


Dear ping_man,

Looks like your first post, even though you joined in 2009. Welcome, and I know you will find golf 'truth' on this site.

I am a 'newbee', and AM NOT a teacher, but will predict that you will hear from many fine teachers regarding this post.

My passion, and full-time pursuit of golf truth has involved predominantly the 'dynamic' characteristics of the golf swing, and especially, lower body dynamics and stability.

The basic golf down swing develops over 100 miles per hour in about 1/4 of a second, clearly an explosion of energy. In the process 3-5 horsepower is developed, and then 'arrested' during the follow thru, and my findings over the last 5 years have led me to the conclusion that the human body was NOT designed for this movement, Most swings, including elite golfers, exceed the natural 'dynamic' characteristics of the human body, leaving it no other choice other than to 'reflex' involuntary movements to satisfy the highest order design characteristics of survival and safety.

The solution to all of these involuntary reactions is to anticipate them, and stay within the natural static and dynamic limits of the body.

Regarding the lower body, I have posted over 100 messages ONLY ANSWERING the questions, as I will do here.

So, to make this an efficient exchange, please 'Google' search "Bumpy back vs Diagonal Stance", and click on the Brian Manzella blog site it will lead you to. From my review of your 3 videos, you with your forward slide and reverse "C" finish present a VERY challenging lower body dynamic balance and stability margin challenge, which I will expand upon if you desire after you get all the swing advice from the teachers on this site.

Looking forward to their, and your replies.
art

 

[ping_man]

Hi art, thanks for the reply. I have read "Bumpy Back" vs Diagonal Stance before and thought it was very interesting, thanks. I employed it while practicing, with a more 'athletic' stance and move and struck it very well at times. However a quote from that thread : "the internal rotational velocity of the RIGHT hip joint MUST be significantly lower than that of the LEFT hip joint." puzzled me, is it possible to rotate the hips separately? For me, I have always found it difficult to maintain a full shoulder turn due to back surgery when I was younger (which I am now working on with flexibility exercises...) which could be the source of my lacking power.

I am now working on making a full shoulder turn whilst keeping my lower body more silent which is very difficult for me. I've also uploaded a DTL video if anyone is interested.

Cheers, Mike.

 

[art]

Hi art, thanks for the reply. I have read "Bumpy Back" vs Diagonal Stance before and thought it was very interesting, thanks. I employed it while practicing, with a more 'athletic' stance and move and struck it very well at times. However a quote from that thread : "the internal rotational velocity of the RIGHT hip joint MUST be significantly lower than that of the LEFT hip joint." puzzled me, is it possible to rotate the hips separately? For me, I have always found it difficult to maintain a full shoulder turn due to back surgery when I was younger (which I am now working on with flexibility exercises...) which could be the source of my lacking power.

I am now working on making a full shoulder turn whilst keeping my lower body more silent which is very difficult for me. I've also uploaded a DTL video if anyone is interested.

Cheers, Mike.

Dear Mike,

Sorry about the confusion about the hip JOINTS having different internal rotational velocities. If you want to really understand this area search on Dr. Heather Gulgin, starting with her Phd Thesis. The simple answer is that the whole golfing community defines 'hip angular velocity' by drawing a straight line thru some hip reference points, and measures the change in the angle of this line against a chosen reference system. Of course, in this case the hip velocities are identical.

The real kinesological movements of the pelvis, however, results from activity of the knees and the internal movements of the top of the femurs inside the hip sockets causing different values for the angular velocities inside the sockets as noted in Dr. Gulgins research. What matters to me, and dynamic balance is the 'rotational path' of the lower body, and the centripetal force vector that develops.

But all that matters during the golf swing is that the trail hip should FOLLOW the rotational (and hopefully minimum lateral) movement of the lead hip. The problem is that the current (and probably for all time) desire for maximum distance, has been the result of spinning the hips faster and faster. A recent Golf Digest article shower Rory McIlroy exceeding 700 degrees per second, a potential BACK BREAKER IMO.

So, if you are trying 'Bumpy back, keep it back', just keep the trail hip rotationally QUIET until the lead hip rotation sort of pulls it out from the 'Bumpy back' set-up position.

Good luck,
art

 

[GaryRead]

Art would I be correct in thinking...

That in your view, the right hip should act as a hinge on the dowswign with the left hip being the part that swings.

so in effect, just like a door on a hinge, the right hip can stay quiet and still, while the left hip acts as the furthest point from the hinge and moves faster because of this.

And would I be close to correct in thinking the worst movement for lower body dynamic balance would be to reverse this action, wherebey the left hip acts as the hinge on the dowswing and the right hip accelerates out towards the ball and cause all the resultant problems you have written about?

Thanks

 

[art]

That in your view, the right hip should act as a hinge on the dowswign with the left hip being the part that swings.

so in effect, just like a door on a hinge, the right hip can stay quiet and still, while the left hip acts as the furthest point from the hinge and moves faster because of this.

And would I be close to correct in thinking the worst movement for lower body dynamic balance would be to reverse this action, wherebey the left hip acts as the hinge on the dowswing and the right hip accelerates out towards the ball and cause all the resultant problems you have written about?

Thanks

Dear GaryRead,

THANKS FOR A GREAT SET OF COMMENTS, AND A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING.

The science involved, that IMO controls the quality of EVERY golf swing is whether or not ALL parts of the body ROTATING are dynamically balanced and stable. So lets take your observations one at a time for clarity.

(1) and (2) The right (trail) hip JOINT is actually a POINT of rotation in multiple axes, NOT JUST a HINGE as there are motions in all 3 axes during the explosive transition and down swing. BUT an acceptable 2D approximation, as you described as a hinge on a door, has been analytically studied as "Instantaneous Screw Axis Theory" which is a great approximation for the axis/hinge of the right (trail) hip AT THE TRANSITION AND START OF THE DOWN SWING. The HINGE however will MOVE as the left (lead) hip slows down, and the right (trail) hip rotates towards the ball, and then the target.

For me, a clear visual representation of the movement of the hips during the down swing is to CUT AN ELLIPSE OUT OF CARDBOARD. NOW PLACE IT ON A TABLE TOP AGAINST A BOOK, OR SOME STRAIGHT OBJECT. This is a representation of your pelvis as seen from above, so now just raise the lead part of the ellipse 45 degrees, representing the top of the back swing position for the left (lead) hip. Now slowly rotate the object COUNTERCLOCKWISE, and notice how the lead hip moves towards the book, and then the trail hip moves up, and towards the ball and then the target.

This generalized and admittedly complex movement of the lower body including both legs, (and especially the knees 'powering' this motion, not the pelvis and hips which are virtually 'powerless' for this movement) has a MAJOR effect in attaining dynamic stability.

(3) So, the reverse of this has the opposite effect of creating dynamic INSTABILITY of the lower body, and to make matters worse, corrupts the path of the upper body, and the timing and kinematic sequencing required for quality shots.

Thanks for asking.

Sincerely,
art

 

[dbl]

Art, I appreciate the image you've given of the ellipse and it's movement.

I have a question about the prior advice given (70's? Nicklaus?) about a "powerful leg drive", and of "shifting the hips" forward to start the downswing . Your Bumpy Back sounds like "prevent leg firing" or hip translation (laterally).

Can you comment about the leg drive portion of a pivot motion and why it is bad, not just on over spinning the hips?

 

[art]

Art, I appreciate the image you've given of the ellipse and it's movement.

I have a question about the prior advice given (70's? Nicklaus?) about a "powerful leg drive", and of "shifting the hips" forward to start the downswing . Your Bumpy Back sounds like "prevent leg firing" or hip translation (laterally).

Can you comment about the leg drive portion of a pivot motion and why it is bad, not just on over spinning the hips?

Dear dbl,

Absolutely, I would like to comment on your question regarding a significant lateral move starting the downswing.

That move, and my 71 year old body back in 2007, is what launched me on this passion to find 'golf truth'. For any scientifically oriented person confronted with the complexities of a golf swing, there is the insatiable urge to 'calculate' how many ways can this 'hitting the ball' be accomplished?? Well, it is over a million counting the degrees of freedom of all the joints that can be involved. Double this if you want to consider the 2 styles of 'rotation' and lateral movement', so I was immediately confronted with the need to understand the characteristics and differences the 'styles' have on the desired outcomes of DISTANCE, ACCURACY, AND INJURY POTENTIAL. I have already on another thread indicated the involvement of medical research first done at the Centinela Biomechanical Lab, and now work being done at The Cleveland Clinic, both regarding back injuries from golf swings.

I am sure you know where I am going, as it was easy to see and calculate that the lateral shift had significantly MORE injury potential than a mostly rotary swing.

But the clincher for me, in deciding to concentrate on the more rotary swing was incredible work done in Dr. Ball's thesis, first available on the internet IN FULL about 5 years ago. As I recall, he had a subject base of over 60 golfers, with great summary statistics, and then detail statistics on 5 golfers chosen from the 60. What I found, was that the mostly rotary group had significantly lower 'position' dispersions of the vertical center of pressure during critical parts of the downswing, including impact. Those data, and my interpretation, formed the basis of my briefing to Dr. Greg Rose, Dave Phillips and Phil Cheetham at The Titleist performance Institute (TPI) in late 2007.

I have never looked back from the work at that time CONCLUDING that ANY SIGNIFICANT lateral movement in a golf swing is undesirable because of potential injury, and from Dr. Ball's work, accuracy and dispersion control too. The folks at TPI agreed with these conclusions at that time. The remaining desire for more distance, while Dr. Balls work containing only club head speed clearly showed an advantage to the rotary swinging group was not good enough to convince the TPI folks, so we left that to subsequent testing in 2008 which confirmed at least equivalent swing speed.

During the last 4 years, and since the the work on dynamic stability with increases in distance of more than 10%, IMO, this convincingly says to me, the lateral swing of the past has been superseded with varying degrees of rotary and SLIGHT lateral then rotary swing characteristics.

Hope that answers your questions, if not, please forward any more in your response.

Sincerely,
art

 

[drewyallop]

Dear Mike,

Sorry about the confusion about the hip JOINTS having different internal rotational velocities. If you want to really understand this area search on Dr. Heather Gulgin, starting with her Phd Thesis. The simple answer is that the whole golfing community defines 'hip angular velocity' by drawing a straight line thru some hip reference points, and measures the change in the angle of this line against a chosen reference system. Of course, in this case the hip velocities are identical.

The real kinesological movements of the pelvis, however, results from activity of the knees and the internal movements of the top of the femurs inside the hip sockets causing different values for the angular velocities inside the sockets as noted in Dr. Gulgins research. What matters to me, and dynamic balance is the 'rotational path' of the lower body, and the centripetal force vector that develops.

But all that matters during the golf swing is that the trail hip should FOLLOW the rotational (and hopefully minimum lateral) movement of the lead hip. The problem is that the current (and probably for all time) desire for maximum distance, has been the result of spinning the hips faster and faster. A recent Golf Digest article shower Rory McIlroy exceeding 700 degrees per second, a potential BACK BREAKER IMO.

So, if you are trying 'Bumpy back, keep it back', just keep the trail hip rotationally QUIET until the lead hip rotation sort of pulls it out from the 'Bumpy back' set-up position.

Good luck,
art

Keeping the trailing hip "rotationally quiet" and letting it be pulled around by the lead hip was an important insight for me. At first "keep it back" seem to imply that muscular force should be applied to keep the trail hip "back". This lead to many problems.

 

[dbl]

Alright Art, thanks! I appreciate knowing this. At some point, I'd also appreciate Brian's views on what lateral hip translation provides (or subtracts) from the golf swing. Kinda of a "do it right" for the pivot.

But in any case, swing patterns which are easy on the back or other at-risk body parts makes sense.