Path and Clubface

[NickT]

I get a little confused on path and clubface. Path only dictates where the ball starts correct? Clubface dictates where it curves?
So what does a club that is fit poorly for a player cause, just pulls and pushes if its too flat or upright, or can it cause the ball to curve incorrectly too?

 

[Brian Manzella]

The ball STARTS where the clubface is looking at separation.

It curves if the path (plane line) is not pointing to the same place as the clubface.

When it curves, it curves AWAY from the devergent path.

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

The ball STARTS where the clubface is looking at separation.

It curves if the path (plane line) is not pointing to the same place as the clubface.

When it curves, it curves AWAY from the devergent path.

Lets say the clubface is dead square at separation, i.e. facing the target. And lets say separation occurs before low point, which is what happens on most golf shots. This means the clubhead has to be still travelling outwards during impact and separation, i.e. the clubhead path is to the right of the target. This is the "inside-out impact" but "inside-in stroke" referred to in TGM.
The ball leaves the clubface 90 degrees, which is straight at the target in this example. However, since the clubhead path is still going 'towards right field' at separation (clubhead path not pointing same direction as clubface), does that mean the ball will have hook spin?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Yup.

 

[Brian Manzella]

On the GolfTek machine, that would be the "infamous" 2° inside-out PATH and 1° open clubface a PERFECT, almost imperceptible draw.

A straight path 0° and a Square clubface 0° WILL produce the dead-staright ball, but it FEELS like a pull HOLD shot.

Perfect slight fade is 0° path and 1° open clubface. With these numbers, I was once 27-under par for one week of golf!

 

[01ragtop]

Brian,
you mentioned GolfTek, I am curious if all the manufactures machines follow these laws. It seems that if the machine is programmed wrong, the the info would be wrong, right? While being fitted, are there any machines we should stay away from?

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

Yup.

Doesn't that beg the question of how exactly does one produce a dead straight shot when separation occurs before low point?

(refer to my previous post)

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

quote:Originally posted by brianman

Yup.

Doesn't that beg the question of how exactly does one produce a dead straight shot when separation occurs before low point?

(refer to my previous post)

Your human eye cannot detect a "dead straight shot." In most cases it is a very small draw 1-2 yards than you can't tell.

 

[DDL]

What is meant by FIXING THE CLUBFACE during the pre-shot routine? I don't think it means altering your normal grip by rotating the clubshaft in your hands, ie. back of the left hand still matches up with the leading edge if you use a neutral grip.

Does fixing the clubface mean preparing ahead of time how much you will turn your wrists on the backswing, for example, using the twistaway to cure slices?

Or does fixing the clubface mean to adjust the amount by which the clubface is open or closed to the plane line at impact fix?

I've been wickedly slicing lately, so I know the problem is that having my palms facing the inclined plane on the BS is too much turn, thus causing an open clubface at separation. My proposed solution is to open the clubface less on the backswing using a half-way twistaway, still using my normal impact fix and address alignments. Is this correct?

Thanks.

 

[NickT]

Still a little unclear. Let's say I have an inside-out path. At impact, assuming I do nothing with the clubface through manipulation with my hands, the clubface would be open to my target line, but square to my path line which would make the ball start right. The fact that most players with an in-to-out swing hook it tells me that they must close the clubface. So it wouldn't seem that path hooked the ball at all, but that a players compensating by closing the face did. If the path is in-to-out but the clubface comes back square to the target </u>line (closed to the path line) then the ball should start to the right and hook back toward the target. So it would seem that clubface is soley responsible for curvature of the ball. The same could be said for a player that comes over the top and compensates with an open clubface to slice it back toward the target.

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by DDL

What is meant by FIXING THE CLUBFACE during the pre-shot routine? I don't think it means altering your normal grip by rotating the clubshaft in your hands, ie. back of the left hand still matches up with the leading edge if you use a neutral grip.

Does fixing the clubface mean preparing ahead of time how much you will turn your wrists on the backswing, for example, using the twistaway to cure slices?

Or does fixing the clubface mean to adjust the amount by which the clubface is open or closed to the plane line at impact fix?

I've been wickedly slicing lately, so I know the problem is that having my palms facing the inclined plane on the BS is too much turn, thus causing an open clubface at separation. My proposed solution is to open the clubface less on the backswing using a half-way twistaway, still using my normal impact fix and address alignments. Is this correct?

Thanks.

If you are swinging, you've really got to 'let' it open going back to 'allow' it to close coming through - think Mike Weir. This requires a FULL ROLL feel through the shot. To be a 'true swinger', you've got to open going back (startup swivel). Any attempt to fight that opening, ironically, makes it MUCH harder to close coming through.

Equal and opposite reactions.

If you are hitting, you need more 'twist away', and you should probably be playing a fade, but either way, get back to FULL ROLL until the draw comes back and then back off as needed.

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

quote:Originally posted by brianman

Yup.

Doesn't that beg the question of how exactly does one produce a dead straight shot when separation occurs before low point?

(refer to my previous post)

Can you (or Tom) solve this apparent paradox?

 

[MizunoJoe]

quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

quote:Originally posted by brianman

Yup.

Doesn't that beg the question of how exactly does one produce a dead straight shot when separation occurs before low point?

(refer to my previous post)

One way, using Hor Hinging, is to contact the ball before low point, one dimple inside with an open face which is closing at the correct rate so that at separation, the face is square to the plane line. The farther to the right of low point, the lower the straight shot, the closer to low point, the higher the straight shot. The flatter, the plane of the club, the more difficult this is to execute, the steeper, the easier.

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe



One way, using Hor Hinging, is to contact the ball before low point, one dimple inside with an open face which is closing at the correct rate so that at separation, the face is square to the plane line. The farther to the right of low point, the lower the straight shot, the closer to low point, the higher the straight shot. The flatter, the plane of the club, the more difficult this is to execute, the steeper, the easier.

Brian was saying:
It [the ball] curves if the path (plane line) is not pointing to the same place as the clubface. When it curves, it curves AWAY from the devergent path.

But before low point, even if the clubface is facing the target, the clubhead will be travelling outwards. So it's not "pointing to the same place as the clubface". So you draw the ball starting off going straight at the target and spinning to the left, according to this.

 

[Brian Manzella]

YES!

But maybe a .01% draw.

I said that IF your "GolfTek" path IS straight through the ball and the face is square—makes no difference about low point—the ball can "zero out."

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

YES!

But maybe a .01% draw.

I said that IF your "GolfTek" path IS straight through the ball and the face is square—makes no difference about low point—the ball can "zero out."

Ok, .01% draw...

YES! I was making the point that the clubhead has to be travelling OUTWARDS if it hasn't reached low point yet.

So according to this, the steeper the plane angle the less hook spin you have.

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

quote:Originally posted by brianman

YES!

But maybe a .01% draw.

I said that IF your "GolfTek" path IS straight through the ball and the face is square—makes no difference about low point—the ball can "zero out."

Ok, .01% draw...

YES! I was making the point that the clubhead has to be travelling OUTWARDS if it hasn't reached low point yet.

So according to this, the steeper the plane angle the less hook spin you have.

Yes. The steeper the plane angle, the more angled hinge approaches vertical hinge, favoring a fade. The more shallow the plane angle, the more angled hinge approaches horizontal hinge, favoring a draw.

The design of the club (offset and 'hook face') account for this issue to some 'degree' Leo.

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ




Yes. The steeper the plane angle, the more angled hinge approaches vertical hinge, favoring a fade. The more shallow the plane angle, the more angled hinge approaches horizontal hinge, favoring a draw.

Actually, that wasn't what I was referring to. Assuming horizontal hinging, this would be the same for all plane angles. I was referring to the fact that there is a greater 'outwards' component of the clubhead with a shallow plane than a steeper plane. So for a given distance behind low point, the clubhead will need to be going towards 'right field' more. Which means if the clubface is dead square at separation, there will be more of a draw.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Sounds good to me.

But we ARE talking INCHES of draw.

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

Sounds good to me.

But we ARE talking INCHES of draw.

That's why they say a draw is the "natural shot". [8D]