Pavin's Tips

[burners]

I like Corey Pavin's game; wish the pro game was still such that a shotmaker (not a bomber) could still win the big events.

Saw on YouTube some new instruction (3 days old) from Pavin. Anyway, it's 2009, and he's showing how to hit a draw and a fade using the old ball flight laws (like in Golf My Way circa 1974).

He obviously knows how to do it, and I'm sure he feels like he does it this way. But, what is going on? Low snappers left of the target and push slices to the right is what you'd really get. He's hitting what looks like a mid iron, so the "down" is going to make things even more pronounced.

Last time I asked this question, Manzella said Nicklaus was "fudging". What does that mean, and what is Pavin doing?

I guess the answer would have been obvious if Pavin would have shown us how to hit a "straight" shot. These old school players (champions) always talked about how important setup, aim, and alignment were. Sort of makes it all that more remarkable/interesting to me.

 

[Richie3Jack]

If you're using the old ball flight laws, I find that you can still hit some decent shots and not necessarily a low snapper and a block slice.

I can hit draws and fades on command, but usually I start them a bit too far right and a bit too far left. Still a decent shot, but not exactly like I was trying. Pavin probably has excellent control of the clubface so he probably keeps that face at around 0.0* at impact instead of more closed or open and thus he can just move the plane line around and hit good draws and fades.





YAKUZA

 

[mjstrong]

Last time I asked this question, Manzella said Nicklaus was "fudging". What does that mean, and what is Pavin doing?

What you "think" you're doing and what you're actually doing can be very different, even for top tier players. Whether he know it or not, his club is doing what trackman says he'd be doing. He might think that he gets the clubface to square every time he hits it at his target, but maybe he's releasing it through that outside-in fade swing a little more, in order to start the ball left of target.

I believed and used the old ball flight laws growing up, but was never very good at hitting fades around those trees, just a push cut right into them. A draw was always easy, but when I tried to manufacture a big draw, it was always an over-done pull-draw version of what I imagined. When I just "felt" the draw (instead of trying to create starting line with my path and finishing point with my face), I was much more accurate. I would imagine Pavin is the same, except that he can create both shots much more easily.

 

[softconsult]

"But, what is going on? Low snappers left of the target and push slices to the right is what you'd really get. "

Not really. I learned during the early 60's. Sure read the Nicklaus book more than a few times. To me it's just trying it, watching the results and adjusting. That is easier when you are teenager, because you are not as analytical. Learning to hold off the face for a fade, more for an intentional big bender, or letting it roll over for a draw falls into the face control skill set.

I played the high fade for most of my golfing life. Balata golf balls flat out curved. I long ago learned to hit the low draw out from under limbs by aiming the face at the target then aiming the target line out to the right. Obviously, after you hit a few trees on the left, you adjust. Knowing how to do this continues to come in handy. Fellow golfers, who don't know the shot, are amazed when you pull it off. Not that difficult.

Golf is not all theory, and numbers. There is a large feel/instinct element. Pavin is a good example.

 

[GPM1985]

Breakthroughs like the D-plane just cut down on the amount of trial and error. There's no guessing at what needs to happen. Each type of shot is now quantifiable.

I think this means that golfers will start getting better at a much faster rate. Stuff like Trackman is going to vastly influence the depth of talent in 20 years, maybe sooner. Imagine if Tiger Woods had been born in 1995 instead of 1975. Now imagine Earl Woods taking out a second mortgage to buy a Trackman for little Tiger. Scary.

 

[greenfree]

Breakthroughs like the D-plane just cut down on the amount of trial and error. There's no guessing at what needs to happen. Each type of shot is now quantifiable.

I think this means that golfers will start getting better at a much faster rate. Stuff like Trackman is going to vastly influence the depth of talent in 20 years, maybe sooner. Imagine if Tiger Woods had been born in 1995 instead of 1975. Now imagine Earl Woods taking out a second mortgage to buy a Trackman for little Tiger. Scary.

It's not going to be the magic pill that people think it is. If your a hacker with flipping/ over the top/ reverse pivot/ contact problems, it won't matter if you know the d plane inside out.

There's lots of people that play golf but it doesn't make them players, you still need talent/ability. Knowledge of the d plane is only good if you can apply it.
It will help some and won't matter to others, if you can't get proper contact you can't make it work.

Like every other sport there's those that know and can and there's those that know and can't. There's also those that don't know and can and those that don't know and can't.

 

[suns11111]

Well I saw Pavin this summer at the PGA and followed him from 13 - 16. Driving was not his strong suite, but thought his short game was top 5 of the pros I saw that day. Check out this long swing with a short shot......got to be kidding me!
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWMvU1o2Svc[/media]
Third one he holed
JeffS

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

It's not going to be the magic pill that people think it is. If your a hacker with flipping/ over the top/ reverse pivot/ contact problems, it won't matter if you know the d plane inside out.

There's lots of people that play golf but it doesn't make them players, you still need talent/ability. Knowledge of the d plane is only good if you can apply it.
It will help some and won't matter to others, if you can't get proper contact you can't make it work.

Like every other sport there's those that know and can and there's those that know and can't. There's also those that don't know and can and those that don't know and can't.

It took me about 15-20 balls with someone at the GTE (sorry forgot your name) who was trying to get his NHA working better and i did it all by ball flight, my experience teaching, and my knowledge of the ball flight laws to get the ball to fade a little.

Would have taken me 3 balls if i had the trackman setup. So ya, invaluable. Even with a hacker it makes a difference because you know exactly what they are doing and what you have to do to change the path/face/aoa to get the hacker to do what you want.

You'd be surprised but even hackers don't vary their path all that much. Now a beginner? Different story.

 

[greenfree]

It took me about 15-20 balls with someone at the GTE (sorry forgot your name) who was trying to get his NHA working better and i did it all by ball flight, my experience teaching, and my knowledge of the ball flight laws to get the ball to fade a little.

Would have taken me 3 balls if i had the trackman setup. So ya, invaluable. Even with a hacker it makes a difference because you know exactly what they are doing and what you have to do to change the path/face/aoa to get the hacker to do what you want.

You'd be surprised but even hackers don't vary their path all that much. Now a beginner? Different story.

Hackers might not vary their path that much, but what about their clubface control, low point etc. can they consistently repeat those aspects. I think not ,that's why their hackers, they don't have the ability/talent like some others.They look like beginners, some of which have played numerous years.

It's one thing to take someone that has decent ball contact and use d plane and trackman to improve them, it's another whole issue dealing with people that have all kinds of various faults, the biggest one which is poor impact, for various reasons.

You the teacher may know what they have to do, but in the end they have to have the talent/ability to do it, some do not and some do, Trackman and d plane cannot improve a persons physical short comings and the ability to apply instruction. Application, the ability to apply, some can, some can't.
Consistent application ,same thing.

Also i notice that people have continuing serious issues with their golfswing/game, even after understanding the d plane and a trackman session, what's the reason for that? It never lasts for most, why?

 

[Matt Bryda]

If they come to you to for a lesson than that tells me that they at least think they can change for the better and sometimes that is enough. If you can show someone the difference in their numbers when they flip and flip less than this is a huge time saver for the learning process. It takes the "seems as if" out of the equation. Until you can get on Trackman and experiment a little you have no idea how much of a time saver it can be. If you know where you are going(maybe zeros) you can get there alot quicker!

 

[softconsult]

When I called the folks at "Miles of Golf" to setup my appointment for the Driver Fitting, they asked me about my skill level. They explain on their website that if you can't hit a fairly consistent shot pattern, don't bother with the more expensive Trackman Fitting.

It is clearly helpful to see the numbers, and adjust. My Angle of Attack was too steep. When I shallowed it out, my other numbers improved. But reality rears it's ugly head.

Trackman installations are sparse across the country. I have only two within 3 hours driving distance one way. The hourly rate needs to be high in order to amortize the $30,000 cost of the unit. In other words, even I had one next door, I am not going to spend a lot of time on Trackman.

I told my fitter, who has something like 15 years doing this, that I understood Trackman numbers to some degree. Asked him whether he knew about Brian Manzella's website, and forum. No clue. D Plane? I didn't bother to ask. The spread of technical knowledge with numbers and concepts takes a long time.

 

[GPM1985]

It's not going to be the magic pill that people think it is. If your a hacker with flipping/ over the top/ reverse pivot/ contact problems, it won't matter if you know the d plane inside out.

There's lots of people that play golf but it doesn't make them players, you still need talent/ability. Knowledge of the d plane is only good if you can apply it.
It will help some and won't matter to others, if you can't get proper contact you can't make it work.

Like every other sport there's those that know and can and there's those that know and can't. There's also those that don't know and can and those that don't know and can't.

Yeah, I don't really know how you got here from my post, which suggests that young talents will progress at a faster rate with the help of technologies like Trackman.

You seem to think that Trackman is used by thrusting it at a 30 handicap and telling him to get to work. Obviously in the absence of a competent instructor, the Trackman won't be utilized to its full potential. However, if you have Jim standing there, or Brian, or any pro who knows his stuff (actually not that many of these), great leaps can be made.

I'm excited for all golfers to improve, and I'm particularly excited for good golfers to improve. That's what I was trying to say in my first post. Aspiring golfers looking for that edge are going to use things like Trackman to get ahead, and soon enough it will be a staple rather than a rarity.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Hackers might not vary their path that much, but what about their clubface control, low point etc. can they consistently repeat those aspects. I think not ,that's why their hackers, they don't have the ability/talent like some others.They look like beginners, some of which have played numerous years.

Well if they are coming for a lesson i do my best to fix those things, thats why they are there yes?

It's one thing to take someone that has decent ball contact and use d plane and trackman to improve them, it's another whole issue dealing with people that have all kinds of various faults, the biggest one which is poor impact, for various reasons.

What if your poor impact is because your clubface is too open and your path is too inside/out? Trackman would tell me how bad it is and i could adjust the student faster to get the contact better.

You the teacher may know what they have to do, but in the end they have to have the talent/ability to do it, some do not and some do, Trackman and d plane cannot improve a persons physical short comings and the ability to apply instruction. Application, the ability to apply, some can, some can't. Consistent application ,same thing.

I can count on 1 hand the number of people that i haven't been able to "really" help get better. The problem is that nobody really wants to "work" at golf. It isn't easy, it requires practice and some dedication to get better even for the an above average talent level. Too many golfers think quick fixes will drop their handicap 5 strokes.

Wanna know how i can get you to score better with nothing else? Take a short game and putting lesson from me. I'm the best putter i know and a very above average short game. You know how many people come for THAT lesson?

Also i notice that people have continuing serious issues with their golfswing/game, even after understanding the d plane and a trackman session, what's the reason for that? It never lasts for most, why?

If someone REALLY understands the d-plane, you won't have continuing serious issues because you will be able to diagnose (to a point) faults by the resulting ballflight. As i said in a different post, i taught a +1.5 golfer the D-plane to where he could answer anything i threw at him and guess what? He's knows exactly what to do to never hook it again and from that alone he went to a +2.0 from hitting more greens.

Also depends on what trackman session you are referring too: driver fitting? iron fitting? lesson? iron gapping? As i said above, average golfers like to tinker instead of practicing something that works. If you are always trying this method and that method instead of what works for you how can you expect to get better?

 

[vjsinger]

[
Also depends on what trackman session you are referring too: driver fitting? iron fitting? lesson? iron gapping? As i said above, average golfers like to tinker instead of practicing something that works. If you are always trying this method and that method instead of what works for you how can you expect to get better?[/QUOTE]

Sorry for the off-topicness of this question, but don't TOUR players screw around with different methods and things all of the time. If so, Do they do this because they percieve that it will make them better?

 

[TROYNYGOLFER]

I can count on 1 hand the number of people that i haven't been able to "really" help get better. The problem is that nobody really wants to "work" at golf. It isn't easy, it requires practice and some dedication to get better even for the an above average talent level. Too many golfers think quick fixes will drop their handicap 5 strokes.

Wanna know how i can get you to score better with nothing else? Take a short game and putting lesson from me. I'm the best putter i know and a very above average short game. You know how many people come for THAT lesson?

Jim, I agree that a good portion of the student world is looking for a "magic bullet." However, I have personally observed many and know a few golfers who have put the time in, and have little or nothing to show for it. Furthermore, we have the golf mainstream media bombarding us with "tips" that are guaranteed (it says so on the magazine cover) to lower our scores. If a $4 dollar magazine can do that, why can't you do that for $100-$200 in an hour? It's a ridiculous mentality, but one you have to deal with.

Your thoughts about the short game are all too real for me, and I suspect for more than a few of the student contingent on the forum. Guilty as charged. For some time, I believed that since the putting stroke and chip/short pitch shots were so relatively simple, instruction was unnecessary. I would put in the appropriate practice time, but with very little return on that investment. Just out of curiosity, are you a fan of the Aimpoint approach to green reading/mapping?

 

[greenfree]

QUOTE:Wanna know how i can get you to score better with nothing else? Take a short game and putting lesson from me. I'm the best putter i know and a very above average short game. You know how many people come for THAT lesson?

I agree with the above, for sure most people wouldn't take that lesson. A lot of what you said makes perfect sense, the only thing i'm saying is your assuming the person can apply what your teaching them, some cannot.The example you gave is of a +1.5 player, not your average hacker to say the least.

V.J. makes a good point even pros are always tinkering and they have access to all the top equipment and teachers. It's a game that lends itself to endless tinkering and adjustment ,regardless of Trackman or d plane.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Just out of curiosity, are you a fan of the Aimpoint approach to green reading/mapping?

i don't know what that is, to be honest i don't have a good approach to teaching reading greens (guilty). However i can and do help people with face/path all the time, i find that too many putters are way too upright from the store and this leads to a slightly closed face that the putter doesn't realize. This then leads to all kinds of nuttyness in the stroke.

When i give a putting lesson it's more about aim and a very nuetral stroke. If i can get them to putt the ball where they want more often and more consistently their green reading should improve by default because they'll be more consistent with where it's going and can adjust their green reading.

 

[westy]

separation by degrees...

I say the best players in the world dont screw around with styles and ideas and on whims anywhere near as much as they used to, and when they do screw around with stuff, they do it within much more defined parameters.
Before they were guessing. Now they want to know before they start.

 

[greenfree]

I say the best players in the world dont screw around with styles and ideas and on whims anywhere near as much as they used to, and when they do screw around with stuff, they do it within much more defined parameters.
Before they were guessing. Now they want to know before they start.

Really, then where do all these come from and who uses and promotes them? Stack and Tilt, One plane swing, Two plane swing, Rotary Swing, Natural Golf, Swing the Handle not the Club Head, Throw the Clubhead first swing, etc.,etc.
How many top pros and teachers have written books and made videos? No wonder the average golfer is messed up. Everyone has their opinion on how to do it and they are all correct. Right?

 

[Scottgas2]

Jim K
If I were to come to Chicago, how would I contact you for a putting lesson?