PGA and Teaching Golf

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Is it now time to introduce a specialist teaching qualification, which must be renewed every 2 years to ensure that golf teachers are up to date on the latest essential information?

It is clear that the PGAs are not currently fulfilling this requirement, which begs the question: how important is it then to be "PGA Qualified".

A question for forum members: Would you trust a Manzella (or a MacLean, Haney etc etc) trained Professional over a PGA trained Professional in the teaching environment? If so, are the PGAs now redundant regarding a teaching qualification?
 
Is it now time to introduce a specialist teaching qualification, which must be renewed every 2 years to ensure that golf teachers are up to date on the latest essential information?

It is clear that the PGAs are not currently fulfilling this requirement, which begs the question: how important is it then to be "PGA Qualified".

A question for forum members: Would you trust a Manzella (or a MacLean, Haney etc etc) trained Professional over a PGA trained Professional in the teaching environment? If so, are the PGAs now redundant regarding a teaching qualification?

There is an expression "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water" that applies here. As a PGA professional that has taught for 49 years, I find it puzzling to consider how so many of the great players of the game got to where they were if it had not been for some PGA professionals guiding them.
I do not disagree with continuing education and or certification; however, who will set the standard and or who will do the certification as it seems there is a war going on among many of those to whom you reffered.
I have made it a mission to stay abreast of much of the latest in teaching models and technology. Obviously, not everyone including myself can afford a Trackman, 3D device, etc.
My point here is I see on this forum and other forums a constant bashing of other teachers and teaching styles. Why can't we all just learn from each other?
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I agree. A little too much PGA bashing. As if all "club pros" are dopes who teach old ball flight laws and a weight shift. There are some bad ones and the emphasis has been going away from the teacher/player, however.
 
Golf is game of skill. Evaluating, developing, and refining. Before there was Trackman, SAM Putt Lab, 3D motion capture, and TPI/fitness emphasis, there were guys that coached and that's how they got results. Harvey Penick was a master at giving his guys visual cues to associate with a feel. He was one of the greats that could give you something that would stick. But he was Crenshaw and Kite everyday watching them practice. But his greatest attribute was he knew talent and how and when NOT to screw it up. I own almost every piece of technology there is and I find myself going back to old fashioned coaching. Evaluating what a student does best and focusing on what he needs to be an all around golfer. Not a club swinger. Those are two different endeavors entirely. For the most part the tour guys were good ball strikers before they were good golfers. They are freakishly talented and if you were to start fooling with their mechanics you better know damn well what your doing and where you're going. The best teachers know just how much to change if they change anything at all. Where do you think all these so called Tour averages came from? From extremely skill athletes that were for the most part born that way who have refined that skill from thousands of hours of practice. Not from launch monitors and motion capture. Technology is still so new we still don't have a world class player that was created from Trackman or Flightscope. The only technology Tiger Woods had during his run toward 12 majors was video. Maybe some primitive motion capture for eval purposes. But mostly video. I could be wrong but I don't think Nicklaus, Sneed, Watson, Hogan, Jones or any of the other great champions used much more than a mirror. Technology is something we have created to expedite the process. I think. The jury is still out IMO. It's seems like as teachers we have all this technology to legitimize us as professionals. I've had two back surgeries since 2000 and I'm a better player than Ive ever been. Not because a particular technology made me a better player but because it helped me understand what is really going on. If you use it that way I think it's a benefit for sure.

The technology helps me more than it does my players. If a player had a Trackman unit to work with everyday it would be awesome. But it's too cost prohibitive to hire a guy to coach you with it more than a couple of times a month. When you start chasing numbers you run this risk of losing your intuitive nature. That's what is killing Tiger right now. He's gotten away from playing golf and he's playing golf swing.

That's what scare me with a lot of the young kids that have access to technology. They figure that if a launch monitor says the tour average is this than my swing should be within certain ranges delineated by numbers and look like some tour model.. That's why in my opinion motion capture like AMM, Kvest and what GolfTEC does is merely fluff. It's OK to do an evaluation with a new student to show them " hey, your hips are only 15 degrees open at impact when the tour average is from 45 to 55. That's all fine and dandy, but how do you coach it? Also, just because 150 tour players have those ranges doesn't mean it's going to work for the average golfer. In fact, what the average golfer needs to work on is impact alignments.But what happens? They go to some teched out pro who immediately evals body positions and club data based on NUMBERS. So immediately you have students chasing numbers and not developing skills.

In other sports you played growing up you were evaluated on what lacks in your skill set. Then you were supervised or " coached up " on how to develop and refine those skill sets. Then you went through transfer training to integrate them into real time. How are you going to use those skills to become and better player, score lower, hit more free throws, bat for a higher average, make more tackles with proper technique? The coach didn't "teach" you on Monday and then say " see ya Friday night at 7:00. You're on your own until then" But that's what golf pro's have done for decades. Just because you have a $30k piece of technology or video with line drawing software doesn't mean it's any different. You still have to coach people just like any other sport. There ain't no magic bullets. I don't care how strong the technology is.
 
Before there was Trackman, SAM Putt Lab, 3D motion capture, and TPI/fitness emphasis, there were guys that coached and that's how they got results.........They go to some teched out pro who immediately evals body positions and club data based on NUMBERS. So immediately you have students chasing numbers and not developing skills......There ain't no magic bullets. I don't care how strong the technology is.

Long nice, well writen posting but.... :p

My personal feeling is that most teachers have no idea how this new technoly should be used and are therefor misusing it. Those are the one that make people turn 15.234 degree and hit 3.23435 degree down. Or for the more basic tools like video have no idea how/that the position of the camera will effect the view of the swing.

However there will always some (like Brian) who will try to learn how to make the best use of the technology available. Those pioneers will show other less talented the proper use.

And as soon as some procedures how and when to use Launch Monitors are common knowledge those using it will have a big advantage over those not using techology.

Technology is a magic bullet but you need to know what to shoot with it. Just ask Brian if he would consider going back to his pre-TM teaching era.... :D
 
I agree. A little too much PGA bashing. As if all "club pros" are dopes who teach old ball flight laws and a weight shift. There are some bad ones and the emphasis has been going away from the teacher/player, however.

Maybe there was a slight misunderstanding here. I wasn't PGA bashing as such. The question was more related to the issue of if being PGA Qualified equated with teaching competence. Or put more simply: do I need to go to a PGA Professional to get a decent standard of golf lesson AND/OR if I go to a PGA Professional am I guaranteed a good lesson?
 

grus

New
I have been a PGA member since 1998 and can tell you that there are a lot of quality PGA instructors. The PGA does an bi annual teaching summit that is very good. This years summit had quite a few TGM instructors and they discussed ball flight laws etc. I agree with Kevin that the best way to find a instructor is word of mouth/referral.
 
I have some different opinions on this subject. first I am not a professional so I am looking without any skin in the game.
I am however a capitalist so I believe whole heartedly that the best will be successful and the rest will and should fail and go away to do something else for a living. I am truly against the idea of re-certifying at any point, it would be subjective and intrusive and could be used to keep a rival out such as what happened to Jimmy Ballard when he bucked the systems of the PGA and they tried to make him take a PAT because when he originally joined they didn't have that. He quit the PGA and has not rejoined to this day.
I do have great respect for the PGA emblem and what it represents. I think that having to pass a PAT and get some education on how to run tournaments and a golf operation are a necessity but the teaching element should be something the PGA offers to members and not forces on them. Maybe a requirement of being exposed to bio-mechanics like TPI or some assortment teaching vocabulary but the professional golfer who has proven that they can play at a high level and run a golf business should make their careers in teaching by using their own personal education in golf and seek out the information on their own.
as I stated I believe the great ones will be successful and the rest will fail or flounder. and that is how I believe it should be.
 
Very interesting thoughts trickric: PGAs should offer a formal "academic" training (golf operations, management) and the teaching side is left open to those who can and will offer a service good enough that people want to take lessons with them and recommend them to their friends.

Kevin Shields; said:
Id choose an instructor they way I choose anything else. By word of mouth, reputation and referral.

Just as an example to support word of mouth/reputation versus qualifications: I go to a manual therapist from time to time who is a qualified chiropracter who doesn't use chiropractic stuff anymore because he's discovered other osteopathic techniques which work better. He can't call himself an osteopath because he hasn't done the osteopathic qualification (like with the PGA, they have to pass an exam and become members of the "osteopathic something or other"). But for sure he is much better than the several "real osteopaths" I've been to. He has no need at all to become a member of the osteopath association because he's booked out a year in advance! I haven't seen this in the golfing environment yet, but trickyric give the example of Ballard NO LONGER being a PGA Member. Just wondering if the day will come where you can have a "Ballard" who NEVER WAS a PGA Member.
 
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Actually I have met a few guys that are making a good living teaching at clubs in Florida that are not PGA members. A guy named Cliff Fischer is at a club in Hobe sound. He was trying to make on the mini-tours for about 12 years and then went into the business world for about 5 years before deciding that golf was were he had to be. at 40 years old and at a cost of thousands to get through the program he instead got a job at a club based on his reputation and has full lesson book through the season. He can't play in the PGA tournament series but there are plenty of other tournaments he can play for money like the Florida open.His director of golf is not PGA either and runs 2 clubs in the Hobe sound area.
 
Very interesting discussion.

It may be helpful to divide the golf world into professionals, professional amateurs and the rest of us (Mailer called it "the great wad"). To me the teacher whose main trade is moving a member of the wad from hacker to decent ball striker is the subject of Wulsy's post. I believe that many PGA professionals are not qualified to do this.

What Wulsy is proposing, I think, is a new category called, say, PGA teaching professional. Qualifications would include, among other things, thorough knowledge of swing theory and swing measurement, regular mandatory refreshers, periodic recertification, and assessment of teaching skill, live with a real hacker,

The PGA has been very effective in selling the "Professional" brand. The question that is never asked is: "professional what" - manager, equipment seller, administrator, pro shop merchandiser, teacher?

Idea: the reason so many newbies quit the game is that professional teachers, the majority of them PGA certified, cannot quickly bring a newcomer up to a level at which the game becomes enjoyable?

Drew
 
Very interesting discussion.

It may be helpful to divide the golf world into professionals, professional amateurs and the rest of us (Mailer called it "the great wad"). To me the teacher whose main trade is moving a member of the wad from hacker to decent ball striker is the subject of Wulsy's post. I believe that many PGA professionals are not qualified to do this.

What Wulsy is proposing, I think, is a new category called, say, PGA teaching professional. Qualifications would include, among other things, thorough knowledge of swing theory and swing measurement, regular mandatory refreshers, periodic recertification, and assessment of teaching skill, live with a real hacker,

The PGA has been very effective in selling the "Professional" brand. The question that is never asked is: "professional what" - manager, equipment seller, administrator, pro shop merchandiser, teacher?

Idea: the reason so many newbies quit the game is that professional teachers, the majority of them PGA certified, cannot quickly bring a newcomer up to a level at which the game becomes enjoyable?

Drew

This is were we differ, I think a separate classification for teacher could be available but it would be below a full PGA member because the Business part is the main focus of the Job to most PGA members. I also strongly disagree with any re-certification or qualification on teaching. that would mean that someone or a group of someone's would decide what should and shouldn't be taught and what methods are correct or not and that leads down the road of politics and preference. I think the top 100 teacher list is a perfect example of many different beliefs, methods and philosophies on golf education that are all successful for the instructors who teach them. is Brian the only teacher who is having great success with students? the answer is no, and while I believe he is correct in the information and the the way he gets that information across to his students it doesn't mean that Jim Hardy or Jimmy Ballard or Bob Toski aren't just as successful even though I don't personally believe what they teach is correct. so it goes back to who is going to decide what passes a re-certification or test of golf instruction competence?
JMHO
Ric
 
Good points Ric.

I think your comment that the business part of the job is the main focus for most PGA professionals sums up the problem in my view. Most PGA advertising seems focused on the benefits of taking lessons from a certified professional, the implication being that this is the best instruction available regardless of who the pro is. I don't agree.

Your point on politics and preference is a good one; there can be no one method. Maybe recertification is too extreme but the least we can expect from a professional teacher is a grounding in the science based fundamentals of swing physics and biomechanics, and proper use of measurement devices. What a professional does with that knowledge on the lesson tee is up to him/her; this is where the art comes in. The pro's success from that point on is perhaps a form of informal ongoing recertification. The good ones prosper, the bad ones fail.

Drew
 
Good points Ric.

I think your comment that the business part of the job is the main focus for most PGA professionals sums up the problem in my view. Most PGA advertising seems focused on the benefits of taking lessons from a certified professional, the implication being that this is the best instruction available regardless of who the pro is. I don't agree.

Your point on politics and preference is a good one; there can be no one method. Maybe recertification is too extreme but the least we can expect from a professional teacher is a grounding in the science based fundamentals of swing physics and biomechanics, and proper use of measurement devices. What a professional does with that knowledge on the lesson tee is up to him/her; this is where the art comes in. The pro's success from that point on is perhaps a form of informal ongoing recertification. The good ones prosper, the bad ones fail.

Drew

that is exactly what I was getting at earlier, they should be exposed to the science, biomechanic, technology and proper ball flight laws and from there they need to let the strong survive.
as for the advertising angle, remember Ping is know to the public as a golf company but they are really a defense contractor. the golf and the lesson part is the alluring part the business part is not sexy but it is what really brings in the bacon
I cannot remember a pro being fired for not being a very good teacher but run a crappy operation or tournaments and they are out the door!
 
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