James Marshall (Hogan1953)
New member
If I turn perfectly around a pivot centre located between my shoulders, should my head remain still or will it only move if I slide my hips slightly to my right as I turn?
Pivot centre and a stationary head
- Thread starter James Marshall (Hogan1953)
- Start date
- Status
First of all, realize that the average golfer can only achieve about a 30 degree shoulder rotation around the spine - due to spine movements alone. If one wants to achieve a 90 degree shoulder rotation, the other 60 degrees of rotation is secondary to hip movements that cant the spine over to the right.
Theoretically, the head should move to the right during the backswing if the upper spine is canted to the right. The upper spine should move to the right during a good backswing hip pivot movement because the pelvis has to rotate over the right femoral head. That means that the pivoting motion is not centralised between the feet, but is asymmetrical, and the pivoting of the hips over the right femoral head causes the lower lumbar spine to move to the left and slightly forward, so that the vertebral bodies face to the right. That causes the UPPER spine to be increasingly tilted to the right during the backswing, as the shoulders rotate perpendiculalrly to the upper thoracic spine. The base of the head (at the atlanto-occipital joint) should therefore also move to the right, unless the golfer deliberately resists this movement.
Jeff.
Theoretically, the head should move to the right during the backswing if the upper spine is canted to the right. The upper spine should move to the right during a good backswing hip pivot movement because the pelvis has to rotate over the right femoral head. That means that the pivoting motion is not centralised between the feet, but is asymmetrical, and the pivoting of the hips over the right femoral head causes the lower lumbar spine to move to the left and slightly forward, so that the vertebral bodies face to the right. That causes the UPPER spine to be increasingly tilted to the right during the backswing, as the shoulders rotate perpendiculalrly to the upper thoracic spine. The base of the head (at the atlanto-occipital joint) should therefore also move to the right, unless the golfer deliberately resists this movement.
Jeff.
Last edited:
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Hogan...your head and spin is not a lollipop. The head is not "on top" of the spine, it is "in front" of the spine.
So when you "turn" the lollipop with a head "in front" the head will appear to move to the right but in fact it hasn't, it is still securely attached to the spine, but again, in front of it.
Make sense?
Jim
The head may be in front of the spine, but the natural human tendency is to align the head with the spine - unless one consciously, or unconsciously, decides to rotate the head to the left or right. If the lollipop stick is twisted to the right, then the lollipop head will automatically align towards the right - if the lollipop head is in front of the stick. Therefore, if the upper cervical spine turns to the right, then the head will have a natural tendency to turn to the right.
Jeff.
The head may be in front of the spine, but the natural human tendency is to align the head with the spine - unless one consciously, or unconsciously, decides to rotate the head to the left or right. If the lollipop stick is twisted to the right, then the lollipop head will automatically align towards the right - if the lollipop head is in front of the stick. Therefore, if the upper cervical spine turns to the right, then the head will have a natural tendency to turn to the right.
Jeff.
Chris Sturgess
New member
I think you guys are talking about the same thing, I'm pretty sure Jim is saying that the head is not turning to the right anymore than in the same relationship it had with the body at address.
I have a new question: I was noticing my shadow on the range today. I'm ok as far as turning around my spine I think, but....the shadow of my head sinks lower during the backswing than it was at address. This is a result of me bending my right leg more as I turn on the backswing. I feel like I have to do this to turn properly and powerfully. I'm not going to make some weak turn jsut to keep my head from dipping slightly. So how do I make the turn without dipping? I looked at some video of tour players, so far I've only seen Fred Couples dip his head a little on the backswing.
I have a new question: I was noticing my shadow on the range today. I'm ok as far as turning around my spine I think, but....the shadow of my head sinks lower during the backswing than it was at address. This is a result of me bending my right leg more as I turn on the backswing. I feel like I have to do this to turn properly and powerfully. I'm not going to make some weak turn jsut to keep my head from dipping slightly. So how do I make the turn without dipping? I looked at some video of tour players, so far I've only seen Fred Couples dip his head a little on the backswing.
shootin4par
New
this motion you describe does not happen in hitting a baseball or throwing a baseball, it is not a natural mortion. since we rotate around the right femur, the left side of the hips go back, and so does the base of the spine. To maximize the pendulum, the base of the spine moves right and left, backswing downswing. you are close because you have some understanding of the body. to shift the weight we must shift the COG, what is the COG, you know that one jeff. so if the base of spine, belly button, do not move right on the backswing, how do we shift our weight? The backswing and downswing are to have the same motions, most people would agree on that. so if the weight does not shift back then there is no weight to shift through.
shootin4par
New
brian is a big advocate of the right knee extending a little on the backswing, this will help to stop the dip. Right knee straigtens a little and you can let the left heal lift, should help to keep the head more level. But of course the right knee does not lock.
Shootin4par
During the backswing, the body pivots over the right femoral head. That causes the right pelvis to move backwards and slightly to the left. That, in turn, causes the lower lumbar spine to move slightly to the left and forward.
See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Riggs-ReversePivot.jpg
In this sequence, Brady Riggs is demonstrating a reverse pivot due to hip swaying (images 1 and 2). When one sways the hips, the lower lumbar spine moves to the right, in concert with the swaying hips. To keep balance, the golfer leans his upper body to the left, which causes the upper spine to tilt to the left. In the third image, Brady Riggs is demonstrating a correct backswing hip pivot movement, where the pelvis pivots over a "fixed" right femoral head - note how the right buttocks moves to the left and note how the lumbar spine moves to the left and forward. More importantly, the hip swivelling movement causes the lumbar spine to change its orientation - so that it faces more to the right. That means that any rotation of the shoulders around the thoracic spine will occur around a thoracic spine position that is oriented more to the right - that allows for a more complete shoulder rotation to 90 degrees (or more).
To get a good idea of how the lower lumbar spine moves its face-orientation from central to the right during the backswing, look at this swing video of Mike Austin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoqZufP3UJc&mode=related&search=
Note how Mike Austin keeps his right knee slightly flexed throughout the backswing, which "fixes" the right femoral head in position. Then, note that he has a beautiful hip pivoting movement around the "fixed" right femoral head, which swivel his pelvis, and his lumbar spine, around so that BOTH the pelvis and lumbar spine are oriented to the right at the end of the backswing.
Regarding weight shift during the backswing, the lower torso either stays centralised or moves slightly to the left, while the upper torso moves to the right. The amount of total body weight shift to the right depends on the weight of the lower torso relative to the upper torso, and their relative degree of shift.
Jeff.
During the backswing, the body pivots over the right femoral head. That causes the right pelvis to move backwards and slightly to the left. That, in turn, causes the lower lumbar spine to move slightly to the left and forward.
See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Riggs-ReversePivot.jpg
In this sequence, Brady Riggs is demonstrating a reverse pivot due to hip swaying (images 1 and 2). When one sways the hips, the lower lumbar spine moves to the right, in concert with the swaying hips. To keep balance, the golfer leans his upper body to the left, which causes the upper spine to tilt to the left. In the third image, Brady Riggs is demonstrating a correct backswing hip pivot movement, where the pelvis pivots over a "fixed" right femoral head - note how the right buttocks moves to the left and note how the lumbar spine moves to the left and forward. More importantly, the hip swivelling movement causes the lumbar spine to change its orientation - so that it faces more to the right. That means that any rotation of the shoulders around the thoracic spine will occur around a thoracic spine position that is oriented more to the right - that allows for a more complete shoulder rotation to 90 degrees (or more).
To get a good idea of how the lower lumbar spine moves its face-orientation from central to the right during the backswing, look at this swing video of Mike Austin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoqZufP3UJc&mode=related&search=
Note how Mike Austin keeps his right knee slightly flexed throughout the backswing, which "fixes" the right femoral head in position. Then, note that he has a beautiful hip pivoting movement around the "fixed" right femoral head, which swivel his pelvis, and his lumbar spine, around so that BOTH the pelvis and lumbar spine are oriented to the right at the end of the backswing.
Regarding weight shift during the backswing, the lower torso either stays centralised or moves slightly to the left, while the upper torso moves to the right. The amount of total body weight shift to the right depends on the weight of the lower torso relative to the upper torso, and their relative degree of shift.
Jeff.
Last edited:
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Making sense out of a confusing thread and debate...
This is why I am the host...
How thw Pivot influences swing shape.
This is why I am the host...
How thw Pivot influences swing shape.
Brian - you state at the end of your video that a good backswing pivot is a pivot that allows you to swing the club on the correct plane, and you define the correct plane as the clubshaft's relationship to the ball-target line (what Bobby Clampett calls the "straight plane line" in his recent book).
Here is a photo example of Luke Donald's backswing, which demonstrates how the clubshaft (clubhead end or butt end) points at the ball-target line during the backswing whenever it is not parallel to the ball-target line (in yellow).
See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/LDbackswing.jpg
In image 1 - address position, the clubhead is obviously pointing at the ball-target line.
In image 2 - during the early takeaway - the clubhead is pointing at the ball-target line (red dotted line).
In image 3 - late/end takeaway - you can see two clubheads. The one clubhead is ponting at the ball-target line, and the other clubhead is parallel to the ball-target line (at the end-takeaway position).
In image 4 - mid-backswing - note that the butt end of the club is pointing at the ball-target line (point X).
In image 5 - near the end of the backswing - the butt end of the club is pointing towards a point which will be one an extension of the ball-target line.
In image 6 - end-backswing - the clubshaft is parallel to the ball-target line.
Here is a photo example of Luke Donald's downswing, which demonstrates how the clubshaft (clubhead end or butt end) points at the ball-target line during the downswing whenever it is not parallel to the ball-target line (in yellow).
See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/LDdownswing.jpg
In image 1 - early downswing - the butt end of the club is pointing at a point that is on the extension of the ball-target line.
In image 2 - when the left arm is parallel to the ground - the butt end of the club points at the ball.
In image 3 - mid-downswing - you can see two clubshaft images and you can see that the butt end of the club points at the ball-target line (red dotted lines)
In image 4 - late downswing - the clubhead points at the ball-target line (red dotted line).
In image 5 - early followthrough - you can see two clubshaft images, and the butt end of the club points at the ball-target line (red dotted line) or to a point X which is on an extension of the ball-target line.
If you agree that Luke Donald is swinging his clubshaft on the correct plane, then he must be having the correct hip and shoulder movements to allow that to happen. Note how Luke Donald turns his shoulders perpendicularly around the spine during the backswing and that his shoulder turn is slightly steeper during the downswing as the right shoulder turns on the right shoulder plane and the right forearm follows the line of the clubshaft in the late downswing and early post-impact period (like your frisbee-throwing motion down towards the ball). The main point that I am making is that it is unnatural to swing the shoulders horizontal to the ground in the backswing (as some golf instructors suggest), and that there is a natural/automatic/physiological tendency to rotate the shoulders APPROXIMATELY perpendicularly to the spine. I note that when you hold the club across the front of your shoulders in your video and perform a "correct" backswing pivot, that you naturally/automatically turn your shoulders at right angles to the spine, and that your left shoulder is lower than the right shoulder. In other words, the left shoulder must turn SLIGHTLY lower than the right shoulder in the backswing, presuming that the spine angle is approximately 30 degrees bent-over throughout the backswing.
Why do some golf instructors recommend a horizontal shoulder turn?
Jeff.
Here is a photo example of Luke Donald's backswing, which demonstrates how the clubshaft (clubhead end or butt end) points at the ball-target line during the backswing whenever it is not parallel to the ball-target line (in yellow).
See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/LDbackswing.jpg
In image 1 - address position, the clubhead is obviously pointing at the ball-target line.
In image 2 - during the early takeaway - the clubhead is pointing at the ball-target line (red dotted line).
In image 3 - late/end takeaway - you can see two clubheads. The one clubhead is ponting at the ball-target line, and the other clubhead is parallel to the ball-target line (at the end-takeaway position).
In image 4 - mid-backswing - note that the butt end of the club is pointing at the ball-target line (point X).
In image 5 - near the end of the backswing - the butt end of the club is pointing towards a point which will be one an extension of the ball-target line.
In image 6 - end-backswing - the clubshaft is parallel to the ball-target line.
Here is a photo example of Luke Donald's downswing, which demonstrates how the clubshaft (clubhead end or butt end) points at the ball-target line during the downswing whenever it is not parallel to the ball-target line (in yellow).
See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/LDdownswing.jpg
In image 1 - early downswing - the butt end of the club is pointing at a point that is on the extension of the ball-target line.
In image 2 - when the left arm is parallel to the ground - the butt end of the club points at the ball.
In image 3 - mid-downswing - you can see two clubshaft images and you can see that the butt end of the club points at the ball-target line (red dotted lines)
In image 4 - late downswing - the clubhead points at the ball-target line (red dotted line).
In image 5 - early followthrough - you can see two clubshaft images, and the butt end of the club points at the ball-target line (red dotted line) or to a point X which is on an extension of the ball-target line.
If you agree that Luke Donald is swinging his clubshaft on the correct plane, then he must be having the correct hip and shoulder movements to allow that to happen. Note how Luke Donald turns his shoulders perpendicularly around the spine during the backswing and that his shoulder turn is slightly steeper during the downswing as the right shoulder turns on the right shoulder plane and the right forearm follows the line of the clubshaft in the late downswing and early post-impact period (like your frisbee-throwing motion down towards the ball). The main point that I am making is that it is unnatural to swing the shoulders horizontal to the ground in the backswing (as some golf instructors suggest), and that there is a natural/automatic/physiological tendency to rotate the shoulders APPROXIMATELY perpendicularly to the spine. I note that when you hold the club across the front of your shoulders in your video and perform a "correct" backswing pivot, that you naturally/automatically turn your shoulders at right angles to the spine, and that your left shoulder is lower than the right shoulder. In other words, the left shoulder must turn SLIGHTLY lower than the right shoulder in the backswing, presuming that the spine angle is approximately 30 degrees bent-over throughout the backswing.
Why do some golf instructors recommend a horizontal shoulder turn?
Jeff.
shootin4par
New
Jeff, his knee straightens, not completely but it straightens
also, you can turn around the C7/point between the shoulders and move the COG to the right, now you have weight shift and a pivot center, that is exactly what happens on the downswing, the COG moves really far forward and the C7 stays the same, Study the transition position, right about half way down and reverse it and what do you have? brian likes to turn around the spine on the backswing, lynnes likes the center pivot, what I am saying is in the middle of the two pivots
three ways to move weight,
one to move the upper body way to the right, a no no
two, to move the feet way to the right, imposible,
three, to move the COG/belly button
brian, in hitting on the milk crate how did you get your COG to the left and finish standing on your right toe after impact?
also, you can turn around the C7/point between the shoulders and move the COG to the right, now you have weight shift and a pivot center, that is exactly what happens on the downswing, the COG moves really far forward and the C7 stays the same, Study the transition position, right about half way down and reverse it and what do you have? brian likes to turn around the spine on the backswing, lynnes likes the center pivot, what I am saying is in the middle of the two pivots
three ways to move weight,
one to move the upper body way to the right, a no no
two, to move the feet way to the right, imposible,
three, to move the COG/belly button
brian, in hitting on the milk crate how did you get your COG to the left and finish standing on your right toe after impact?
Last edited:
Shootin4 par
The right knee has to straighten somewhat when seen from a DTL perspective - because if the right hip moves back, the right femoral head must move back and it pulls the right femur causing a "right knee straightening action" as it pulls the right knee back. It is only from a face-on perspective, that the knee does not seem to shift laterally and it seems to hold its address position better.
Here is a photo of Aaron Baddeley's right knee movement during the backswing - showing its relative movement from a face-on and DTL perspective.
http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/AB-RightKnee.jpg
Yellow line is the address position. Red line is the end-backswing position.
Jeff.
The right knee has to straighten somewhat when seen from a DTL perspective - because if the right hip moves back, the right femoral head must move back and it pulls the right femur causing a "right knee straightening action" as it pulls the right knee back. It is only from a face-on perspective, that the knee does not seem to shift laterally and it seems to hold its address position better.
Here is a photo of Aaron Baddeley's right knee movement during the backswing - showing its relative movement from a face-on and DTL perspective.
http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/AB-RightKnee.jpg
Yellow line is the address position. Red line is the end-backswing position.
Jeff.
shootin4par
New
Jeff, I completely understand the perspective you are coming from about the pivot, right knee, spine, etc..... WHen I learned about moving the COG to shift the weight and how that is a natural motion, as in throwing, I started to see the changes in the swing. Take a ball in your right hand, get a video camera, and tee up a golf ball like you were going to to swing. throw the golf ball at the teed ball, or just a tee. allow yourself to shift, let the body free up, and do it as powerful as you can. do this 20 times and on the 15th-20th time tape record it and see how you shift your body. pic #3 in redgoats link you provided, put it up next to that. WHen you are doing this you will not fall over, but your COG will move to the right. Give it a try, you have nothing to loose
Austin head
You can take the test. Move your center (belly button) over your right
toe. Your head should not have moved. Your left knee will move in and the left heel will come up. Austin moved it over his right toe. Left heel raise's naturally from this move. Any other way is artificial.
Head movement will be some, in the neighborhood of 2". Which by the way is cause by the shoulders turning with action of the tricep.
When done this way, you will be in the strongest leverage position, to give the ball its swiftest collision.
You can take the test. Move your center (belly button) over your right
toe. Your head should not have moved. Your left knee will move in and the left heel will come up. Austin moved it over his right toe. Left heel raise's naturally from this move. Any other way is artificial.
Head movement will be some, in the neighborhood of 2". Which by the way is cause by the shoulders turning with action of the tricep.
When done this way, you will be in the strongest leverage position, to give the ball its swiftest collision.
shootin4par
New
jeff, by moving the belly button over the right foot, you will pivot your hips which will pivot your whole spine, turning the hips, shoulders, and top of spine at the same time. This will move the head a little. some believe you start the swing from the ground up while others like to turn the shoulders or start with the hands hands. In what rosser describes the movement will not cause the "X factor" or turn around the spine, but rather moving the base of the pendulum right, to set up for more movement back to the left. when you get close to hte top hte adduction and abduction of the shoulders will have the left arm hit the chin and give it additional movement
Mr. R.
please correct me if I misrepresent your point, I am still a newbie in it myself.
Mr. R.
please correct me if I misrepresent your point, I am still a newbie in it myself.
Last edited:
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Whew!
shootin4par
New
out of all the pivots you talked about, plummer, ballard, head centered, and the pivot you preferred, you left out the compound. chapter 13 of search for the perfect swing, it is in/out there. Bman, dont you think it is time to at least learn what we are talking about. With four different styles you still missed one that produces results.
I am gonna challenge you brian. take your camera and do that throw the ball at the golf ball drill that you did in the video. now do 15 of them and let yourself just focus on throwing it. Place your tee 6 inches in front of your left heal and get to where you can throw it and come within a foot, wind up and pitch as hard as you can, being relaxed and see what number 15-20 look like, then post the video of 1-20.
I am gonna challenge you brian. take your camera and do that throw the ball at the golf ball drill that you did in the video. now do 15 of them and let yourself just focus on throwing it. Place your tee 6 inches in front of your left heal and get to where you can throw it and come within a foot, wind up and pitch as hard as you can, being relaxed and see what number 15-20 look like, then post the video of 1-20.
Last edited:
Audio Difficulty
I cannot adjust the volume high enough to hear, both on the forum and at YouTube. No problem with other segments at the two sites. Although the YT viewing number for this segment is low relative to other Brian segments, there has been no ratings there, possibly suggesting others are experiencing something similar. Howerver, considering the importance of this subject and Brian's other teaching, I would expect some acknowledgement. It would be appreciated if anyone not having difficulty with the signal to forward their link.
I cannot adjust the volume high enough to hear, both on the forum and at YouTube. No problem with other segments at the two sites. Although the YT viewing number for this segment is low relative to other Brian segments, there has been no ratings there, possibly suggesting others are experiencing something similar. Howerver, considering the importance of this subject and Brian's other teaching, I would expect some acknowledgement. It would be appreciated if anyone not having difficulty with the signal to forward their link.
Last edited:
- Status