Pivot Controlled Hands and Body "release"??

Status
Not open for further replies.
3

300Drive

New
what is your take on players who have strong grips, compact backswings, connected arms to body (relatively speaking), and "hold-on" to release the club through impact (Pivot Controlled Hands)?

Whats the good, bad, and ugly?

I am sure there are other players who do this type of action, the ones mentioned do it to a more pronounced degree.

My instructor described that this would be a good way to hit my short irons with more accuracy.
 
Redgoat

Redgoat

New
300Drive,

Shut faced cutters are usually great iron players(ie. Trevino) and deadly with the wedges(Azinger). One thing they nearly all have in common is trouble with the lower back.

Having played that way earlier in my career I can tell you my irons were quite good, driving average, and my back was awful.

Redgoat
 
3

300Drive

New
quote:Originally posted by Redgoat

300Drive,

Shut faced cutters are usually great iron players(ie. Trevino) and deadly with the wedges(Azinger). One thing they nearly all have in common is trouble with the lower back.

Having played that way earlier in my career I can tell you my irons were quite good, driving average, and my back was awful.

Redgoat
Click to expand...

thanks Red.

Any TGM implications?

Bump....no love on this topic?
 
M

MizunoJoe

New
300,

There are more tour players of this type than TGM disciples would like to admit. They monitor the pivot rather than the hands. Under the tremendous pressure of the tour, for many it's easier to consistently control the large muscles. To quote(pretty close anyway) Hal Sutton a few yrs ago, when he was one of the top players: "The hands and arms don't work under pressure, we want the body".
 
N

njmp2

New
quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

300,

There are more tour players of this type than TGM disciples would like to admit. They monitor the pivot rather than the hands. Under the tremendous pressure of the tour, for many it's easier to consistently control the large muscles. To quote(pretty close anyway) Hal Sutton a few yrs ago, when he was one of the top players: "The hands and arms don't work under pressure, we want the body".
Click to expand...
Perhaps (just perhaps) you misunderstand what hand control means. The pivot should and does play a very important role in the swing. The hands and ARMs allows the body to rotate, allows it to act as the pivot. The body should never drag the arms and hands into the ball - that would be a pivot over hands. TGM is neither a handsy or arm swing. Body should lead (not drag or pull) the hands which lead and maintain the lag of the clubhead.
 
M

MizunoJoe

New
I wonder why the above post makes you think that I might not understand what "hand control" means?

The pivot provides TWO things - transport for the hands AND speed for the swing. The pivot provides the "aroundness" for the swing as explained in Brian's article, "May the Forces Be With You". The arms only go "down", from gravity, or pulling, or pushing. The left arm IS flung off the chest via the pivot. The faster you pivot, the faster the "around" part of the clubhead motion.

You can drive a hand pressure point toward an aiming point(hand controlled pivot or "hand control") or you can rely on setup and pivot without being aware of the hands(pivot controlled hands). In either case, the left arm is flung off the chest, unless you choose not to use accumulator #4. So you see, TGM DOES provide the choice of an "arm swing".
 
3

300Drive

New
quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

I wonder why the above post makes you think that I might not understand what "hand control" means?

........ The left arm IS flung off the chest via the pivot. The faster you pivot, the faster the "around" part of the clubhead motion.

........or you can rely on setup and pivot without being aware of the hands(pivot controlled hands). In either case, the left arm is flung off the chest, unless you choose not to use accumulator #4. So you see, TGM DOES provide the choice of an "arm swing".
Click to expand...

The above is what I have been experimenting with using 7 iron thru LW, with huge sucess so far (1 week). I have always struggled with irons. I have always outdriven my playing partners, then, with a short iron in my hand, I'd end up with a 5 or 6 on the card....they would just laugh...my accuracy has improved tremendosly using this action and distance has Not been a problem....lower ball flight, plenty of spin, certainly a flat left wrist through impact.

I was just curious about what TGM has to say about this type of swinging action. I swing more conventional for 6 iron through driver, and No I really dont like having 2 swings....but, I need to hit some greens!!!!
 
N

njmp2

New
quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

I wonder why the above post makes you think that I might not understand what "hand control" means?

The pivot provides TWO things - transport for the hands AND speed for the swing. The pivot provides the "aroundness" for the swing as explained in Brian's article, "May the Forces Be With You". The arms only go "down", from gravity, or pulling, or pushing. The left arm IS flung off the chest via the pivot. The faster you pivot, the faster the "around" part of the clubhead motion.

You can drive a hand pressure point toward an aiming point(hand controlled pivot or "hand control") or you can rely on setup and pivot without being aware of the hands(pivot controlled hands). In either case, the left arm is flung off the chest, unless you choose not to use accumulator #4. So you see, TGM DOES provide the choice of an "arm swing".
Click to expand...

I only wanted to point out that less tour pros rely on the big muscles then you believe since the hands cannot be the puppet to the body but the other way around. Using accum #4 does NOT advocate pivot over hands. Folks tend to misinterpret the word control thinking it means voiding out the pivot and swinging ahead of the body.
 
M

matt

New
Driving Accumulator #4 into the ball...this can be felt by driving the right shoulder into the inside quadrant of the ball. Pressure Point #4 is felt through right shoulder turn thrust.
 
3

300Drive

New
quote:Originally posted by njmp2

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

I wonder why the above post makes you think that I might not understand what "hand control" means?

The pivot provides TWO things - transport for the hands AND speed for the swing. The pivot provides the "aroundness" for the swing as explained in Brian's article, "May the Forces Be With You". The arms only go "down", from gravity, or pulling, or pushing. The left arm IS flung off the chest via the pivot. The faster you pivot, the faster the "around" part of the clubhead motion.

You can drive a hand pressure point toward an aiming point(hand controlled pivot or "hand control") or you can rely on setup and pivot without being aware of the hands(pivot controlled hands). In either case, the left arm is flung off the chest, unless you choose not to use accumulator #4. So you see, TGM DOES provide the choice of an "arm swing".
Click to expand...

I only wanted to point out that less tour pros rely on the big muscles then you believe since the hands cannot be the puppet to the body but the other way around.....
Click to expand...

Doesnt Quiqley, Thorpe, Trevino, Pohl, Sutton (hits a Lot of greens!), Doyle, etc use this action? It may not be what TGM advocates, but, it does work....and well. ....the hands cannot be the puppet to the body...Specifically, WHY NOT?

Because it doesnt work?
Dosent work as well as some other action (per Geometry)? or,
Just because TGM doesnt subscribe it?
 
M

MizunoJoe

New
300,

The hands/arms CAN be slaves to the body. Such a procedure is cataloged in TGM, and as stated there, you merely monitor the pivot rather than the hands. TGM does claim that it's inferior to a hand controlled pivot. Tell that to Carl Paulson, a tour player, who just hangs on and rotates hard.
 
N

njmp2

New

If you monitor the pivot, where should the hands be?
The PIVOT is NOT a speed producer, the hands, arms and shoulders in that order. If the pivot pulls the arms to generate speed, the golfer will have little control of the shot, since he has little awareness of where his hands are at any given time. But he knows where his navel is.
Els, Phil, Irwin, Singh, Toms and Appleby to name a few of the minority that control the pivot with the hands, I would guess you are right, Carl Paulson’s game beats them all hands down-166 on the money list this year, Nationwide money list that is. This is not a slight on Carl, he is a pro with natural talent.
It seems from reading past posts, Homer Kelley is not thought of to highly by many on this forum.
 
M

MizunoJoe

New
njmp2,

Homer answers your first question in the last paragraph on pg 61 - Force dictates alignments because physics takes precedence over geometry in the 'pivot controlled hand' swing.

The statement, "The PIVOT is NOT a speed producer", indicates that you need to read Brian's instructional article, "May The Forces Be With You".
 
3

300Drive

New
From what I can tell, this swinging actions meets the criteria of the 3 imperatives....

Also, you do have clubface control since you can hit draws or fades with the swing.

Geometrey, physics, they are both ok in my book...I dont think geometry is more important than physics....ask NASA.
 
M

matt

New
quote:Originally posted by cdog

Are we basically saying, when geometry takes the lead over physics, its hand controlled pivot?
Click to expand...

Yes.

Pivot controlled hands is physics dictating alignments (geometry).
 
M

MizunoJoe

New
It's worth noting that Homer says that while pivot controlled hands is less precise than hands controlled pivot, he ALSO says that it has the BENEFIT of reducing clubhead throwaway tendencies. So, while most AIs regard pivot control as being greatly inferior to hand control, Homer did have something good to say about pivot control.

And, there is yet another benefit not mentioned in TGM. It is a good procedure for those with a 'hit impulse', since the hands/arms are responding to the pivot.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
quote:Originally posted by 300Drive

what is your take on players who have strong grips, compact backswings, connected arms to body (relatively speaking), and "hold-on" to release the club through impact (Pivot Controlled Hands)?

Whats the good, bad, and ugly?

I am sure there are other players who do this type of action, the ones mentioned do it to a more pronounced degree.

My instructor described that this would be a good way to hit my short irons with more accuracy.
Click to expand...

They aren't "HOLDING ON", so to speak, they are HITTERS!

If you turned your left hand hand to the right on the grip ('strong grip') you wouldn't have to turn it on the backswing to cock your wrist...it would cock in the plane it already was, so therefore....it doesn't have to ROLL to square up the club--just UNcock!

But it is not holding on....;)
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
quote:Originally posted by Redgoat

300Drive,

Shut faced cutters are usually great iron players(ie. Trevino) and deadly with the wedges(Azinger). One thing they nearly all have in common is trouble with the lower back.

Having played that way earlier in my career I can tell you my irons were quite good, driving average, and my back was awful.

Redgoat
Click to expand...
What I described above, Redgoat, would have NO EXTRA effect on the back.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top