Question about throw out action

[2mongoose]

It's 2* outside today and I've got some time to burn. So, I decide to watch "Flipper" again and this idea of throw out action got me thinking.......

Brian briefly touches on hinge action at one point but focuses more on how an effective pivot throws the power package down and out. If you can just hold on to that force you're certain to get a max trigger delay feel and a set of wonderfully educated hands.

My Question:

6-B-3-0: Homer talks about throw out action "automatically aligns the Clubshaft and Clubhead for Horizontal Hinging." He later says "True "Throw Out" action holds the Clubface in Impact Fix alignment and automatically produces Angled Hinging."

So, is Brian monitoring the clubface and executing horizontal hinging via the #3 PP only as he stress the shaft?

Follow-up Question:

If the laws of physics are the same for Joe Hacker and Tour Pro, how do we end up with different release types/points? If centrifugal force drove the power package to the same point, assuming an in-line condition, how are non-automatic release types not steering?

 

[birdie_man]

Besides people with clubface issues...one quote comes to mind:

"There is not a lot of "leaving things alone" in golf swings in the real world." -Brian Manzella

Good questions BTW.

 

[2mongoose]

Birdie,

Not sure I fully understand the Manzellion quote but I'll take a shot. If you ever hear players talk about the swing and it's adjustments, they are rarely at at the technical/mechanical level. Maybe I'm missing these "other" interviews, but it's always "I change my grip a little" or "open my stance a little." All feel based non-technical adjustments. Never "I fought being under plane with the driver today."

Not that these are wrong - but perception and feel are not reality. Physics and law don't care who you are or what equipment contract you have. These guys on tour are just so good that they don't have to think like this all the time.

 

[2mongoose]

Also - I'm hoping this generates a little discussion here. Not that all the posts on the forum always have to be of a technical nature but hey give it a shot here folks!

 

[birdie_man]

It was just something that came to my mind. The quote is from one of Brian's videos. (which I have on my computer but can't find on the forum) He was talking about "leaving the CLUB alone." (to do what "physics" wants to do with it basically)

Something like: "Because of course if you just left the club alone it would horizontally hinge.....but this idea of leaving things alone doesn't happen very much in the real world."

You talked about "holding on".....I know Brian has talked about trying to "hold on" or to "hold a position" as not being a great idea.

One of my favourite things he talks about (to replace any thoughts of "holding") is to use your pivot to "transport" the loaded power package to a point in the downswing whereupon it gets "dumped on the ball."

So, is Brian monitoring the clubface and executing horizontal hinging via the #3 PP only as he stress the shaft?

I for one am not sure what you mean here 2mon.

If the laws of physics are the same for Joe Hacker and Tour Pro, how do we end up with different release types/points?

Provided you don't have a too open face and aren't over-accererating.....or swinging too far to the right even.........I really am not sure WHY people have different release points. Maybe Brian knows.

What I do know though is I am a guy who does not have a super late release and I probably never will. And esp. not with a big bent left wrist in the downswing ALA Sergio. I can do it without a ball.......or if it doesn't matter where the ball goes lol. But if I'm trying to hit a shot it could go anywhere. Up to this point anyway. (I suspect it will not change however)

But what really matters is that my impact alignments are still good and I am creating speed.........

.....and Jason Zuback is a 5-time RE/MAX World Long Drive champ.....so I guess it isn't that big a deal.

If centrifugal force drove the power package to the same point, assuming an in-line condition, how are non-automatic release types not steering?

I'm not sure about "CF driving the PP".......

......but as for "how are non-automatic release types not steering?".....

I think (someone correct me if I am off base) the deal basically has to do with using extra FATS (force against the shaft) as a means to muscularly DRIVE the golf club vs. muscularly MANIPULATING the clubFACE (with your hands) to try to hit the shot wherever you want it to go.

...

BTW you're right with the Tour players. For the most part they don't know very much. (if you have ever watched "Playing Lessons With The Pros" on TGC...heh...) They just "have it." And most of em seem hesitant to change and just want to worry about executing with whatever it IS that they have.

Anyhoo bedtime. It's late and........brain start too......no real function.......guud..........right nowe. (stayed up too late already...like a goofball)

...



Good topic tho.

 

[Brian Manzella]

My Question:

6-B-3-0: Homer talks about throw out action "automatically aligns the Clubshaft and Clubhead for Horizontal Hinging." He later says "True "Throw Out" action holds the Clubface in Impact Fix alignment and automatically produces Angled Hinging."

So, is Brian monitoring the clubface and executing horizontal hinging via the #3 PP only as he stress the shaft?

In the real world, through the ball, almost no golfer is using horizontal hinge action. The 3D machine prove this.

In the MANZELLA MATRIX the center pattern does not have "Kelley defined Horizontal Hingeing."

Nor does the STANDARD MANZELLA MATRIX short game shot.

Was Homer wrong on hinge action?

Well, the club may want to to align itself for Horizonal Hinging, but the arms, hands, and wrist, don't.

That's why the TWISTAWAY is so successful for the golfers that need it. It teaches you to do something that WILL NOT HAPPEN ON ITS OWN, in most cases.

If the laws of physics are the same for Joe Hacker and Tour Pro, how do we end up with different release types/points? If centrifugal force drove the power package to the same point, assuming an in-line condition, how are non-automatic release types not steering?

Read this: http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9898

 

[tongzilla]

That's why the TWISTAWAY is so successful for the golfers that need it. It teaches you to do something that WILL NOT HAPPEN ON ITS OWN, in most cases.

maybe we should try to find out why some golfers (especially the really good ones) can make it happen on its own.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

maybe we should try to find out why some golfers (especially the really good ones) can make it happen on its own.

You train an act/motion consciously for it to become an sub-conscious act/motion.

Something i have told students in the past where we are trying to eliminate or add to their swing, you will have to try and "make it happen" until it becomes "automatic."

 

[birdie_man]

I like that.

Until you have habits you gotta build habits.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

You train an act/motion consciously for it to become an sub-conscious act/motion.

Something i have told students in the past where we are trying to eliminate or add to their swing, you will have to try and "make it happen" until it becomes "automatic."

I'd also like to add that just because some move, at some point in your golf life, has become "automatic" doesn't mean that you can't sort of "un-learn it" and then have to go through the whole process again.

The golf swing is so complicated and so much of it is controlled by your subcoscious reacting to your current condition there are plenty of things that can come/go at times. That's why the best tend to be the ones who work the hardest, and that's just not in golf but in life too.

 

[2mongoose]

Better late than never!

One of my favourite things he talks about (to replace any thoughts of "holding") is to use your pivot to "transport" the loaded power package to a point in the downswing whereupon it gets "dumped on the ball."

Birdie - Good insight! I kinda tried this the other day when "thinking" about my pivot whipping my arms around my body and letting physics do it's thang. I found that as soon as I felt the #4 pressure point 'no mo the throwout action was beginning

In the real world, through the ball, almost no golfer is using horizontal hinge action. The 3D machine prove this.

If we're talking about HK's true definition of horizontal hinging then I agree. The toe of the club isn't on the plane line until much later in the swing than HK implies.

I'd also like to add that just because some move, at some point in your golf life, has become "automatic" doesn't mean that you can't sort of "un-learn it" and then have to go through the whole process again.

I wonder what it would be like be on automatic all the time. It's great when you're "in the zone" and not thinking about anything.