question on plane and shaft

Status
Not open for further replies.
tongzilla

tongzilla

New
If you want the shaft to be pointing slightly to the right of the target during release (when the shaft is parallel to the ground), is it easier to achieve this from a laid off position at the top, or from an across the line position? I know Brian has commented on this in his SD pattern video, but I'd like to hear more on this (from Brian and others).
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
tongzilla said:
If you want the shaft to be pointing slightly to the right of the target during release (when the shaft is parallel to the ground), is it easier to achieve this from a laid off position at the top, or from an across the line position? I know Brian has commented on this in his SD pattern video, but I'd like to hear more on this (from Brian and others).
Click to expand...

The first time the shaft is parallel past the ball or the second?
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I wouldnt necessarily say it is easier, maybe for some. If the shaft is truly working circular on the downswing it would stand to reason it would be pointing to the right at all parallels. Every top player i can think of that swings well thru the ball from a laid off position has a huge plane shift to get some down in their swing via arm drop, axis tilt or leg sag or a combo. Lehman, Garcia, Trevino, Monty, Mark James, Price, to name a few. So maybe you could say its harder, huh? The only one who didnt that I can think of was Ernie Els in his early twenties when he was laid off, swung left, hit pulls and whooped everyone's ass. Then.......Lead poison.
 
Last edited:
M

mb6606

New
Kevin Shields said:
Every top player i can think of you swings well thru the ball from a laid off position has a huge plane shift to get some down in their swing via arm drop, axis tilt or leg sag or a combo. Lehman, Garcia, Trevino, Monty, Mark James, Price, to name a few.
Click to expand...

Great post - Is that what they call dropping it in the "slot"?
 
tongzilla

tongzilla

New
Imagine you're posing at the release point, where the shaft is parallel to the ground and pointing at the target. Now keep everything the same but turn your wrists so the shaft is pointing to the right of the target, but still parallel to the ground. Now go to the top from this position: your shaft will be more laid off. See what I'm trying to say?

Hogan played from a laid off position at the top (even though his shaft stopped short of parallel in most iron shots), but didn't have a dramatic arm drop in transition (some people even say it went a bit OTT!!) especially later in his career.
 
Last edited:
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
tongzilla said:
Imagine you're posing at the release point, where the shaft is parallel to the ground and pointing at the target. Now keep everything the same but turn your wrists so the shaft is pointing to the right of the target, but still parallel to the ground. Now go to the top from this position: your shaft will be more laid off. See what I'm trying to say?

Hogan played from a laid off position at the top (even though his shaft stopped short of parallel in most iron shots), but didn't have a dramatic arm drop in transition (some people even say it went a bit OTT!!) especially later in his career.
Click to expand...

Where your club is in the backswing is very different from where it is in the downswing because of body closed/open and how you load the club to release point. I know what you're saying. But if you try to place the club in the same place relative to the plane line and your hands in the backswing as in the downswing, IMO you're asking for trouble. Thats why the foul ball du jour on Tour is wide right.
 
tongzilla

tongzilla

New
Kevin Shields said:
Where your club is in the backswing is very different from where it is in the downswing because of body closed/open and how you load the club to release point. I know what you're saying. But if you try to place the club in the same place relative to the plane line and your hands in the backswing as in the downswing, IMO you're asking for trouble. Thats why the foul ball du jour on Tour is wide right.
Click to expand...

so you're saying that the turned wrist position will cause a different pivot which will cause the clubhead to go more outside-in.
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Not 100% saying that. Im saying ive seen countless swings that go turned wrist, face toe up and maybe a little laid off at the top. Sorry if I miss a few points but my kids are screaming in my ear. Here's what ive noticed.

Good players who do it successfully have:
A real good plane shift like the ones i mentioned(could draw or fade)
Awesome tempo/rythym
Weak grips with a lot of roll
Could be some others of course

Good players who struggle doing it have:
fast tempo
A drop and slide that turns into hooks and pushes
Huge wipes out to the right
poor pitching/too shallow
turn it early, load further behind
*the inability to lower the shaft before hand path goes "out"

Poor players who do this amost always chop from the outside because of no concept of shifting and if they do shift its flip city.

Im probably rambling and getting away from your original question but Im pretty opinionated when it comes to this type of move because I feel it causes sooo many problems.
 
tongzilla

tongzilla

New
Kevin Shields said:
Not 100% saying that. Im saying ive seen countless swings that go turned wrist, face toe up and maybe a little laid off at the top. Sorry if I miss a few points but my kids are screaming in my ear. Here's what ive noticed.

Good players who do it successfully have:
A real good plane shift like the ones i mentioned(could draw or fade)
Awesome tempo/rythym
Weak grips with a lot of roll
Could be some others of course

Good players who struggle doing it have:
fast tempo
A drop and slide that turns into hooks and pushes
Huge wipes out to the right
poor pitching/too shallow
turn it early, load further behind
*the inability to lower the shaft before hand path goes "out"

Poor players who do this amost always chop from the outside because of no concept of shifting and if they do shift its flip city.

Im probably rambling and getting away from your original question but Im pretty opinionated when it comes to this type of move because I feel it causes sooo many problems.
Click to expand...
You are not rambling Kevin...we are getting to the root of exactly what I want to talk about. You mentioned a lot of things I've been thinking about but haven't put into words. I agree with a lot of what you say, but there are exceptions (don't you love exceptions?!), e.g. Sergio has a strong grip with not a lot of roll in the follow through, but he does drop it a lot. Anyway, I totally agree with you that poor players don't have this dropping concept, hence come way outside. But don't you think it's biomechanically (maybe I'm abusing this word here) easier to make this drop with the wrists turned at the top and right elbow down? It's like this move makes you naturally drop your hands. Also, with the right elbow flying at the top and shaft pointing across the line, you can argue that poor players will push out with the arms from this position (because their right palm is in more of a "pushing out" position rather than a "waiter's tray" position), causing an outside in move. With either move (laid off / across the line) there is some form of shallowing going on. With the laid off move, the hands go shallower (but not the shaft because it's already quite shallow), whereas with the across the line move the shaft goes shallower.
It's interesting you mention that good players can push/hook it with this laid off move, but poor players will pull/slice it- basically completely different ball flights.
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Ya know, all good points. From person to person im sure every one of those could apply. Hell, I find it easier to swing left from across the line. You would have to deal with individuals. I think if one were to argue one way or the other, you have to go straight geometry and say the shaft should work circular, i.e., pointing to the right at every parallel in the downswing. I do think, however, that too many compensations are needed (arched wrist, etc) to play WELL from the position you speak of even if it may be easier for some to swing out to the right a little. It was for me. Most wont have enough angle to get the ballflight up enough unless its a flippy floating type shot.

I think generally think the hands will go where the butt end is pointing, less compensating.
 
Last edited:
birdie_man

birdie_man

New
The one thing that stands out in my mind is...

The laid off backswing (the one you guys are talking about I presume anyway.....ala Tiger on Haney Medicine) is likely more open...

Yes?

Kevin Shields said:
Not 100% saying that. Im saying ive seen countless swings that go turned wrist, face toe up and maybe a little laid off at the top. Sorry if I miss a few points but my kids are screaming in my ear. Here's what ive noticed.

Good players who do it successfully have:
A real good plane shift like the ones i mentioned(could draw or fade)
Awesome tempo/rythym
Weak grips with a lot of roll
Could be some others of course

Good players who struggle doing it have:
fast tempo
A drop and slide that turns into hooks and pushes
Huge wipes out to the right
poor pitching/too shallow
turn it early, load further behind
*the inability to lower the shaft before hand path goes "out"

Poor players who do this amost always chop from the outside because of no concept of shifting and if they do shift its flip city.

Im probably rambling and getting away from your original question but Im pretty opinionated when it comes to this type of move because I feel it causes sooo many problems.
Click to expand...

I don't get all of it but regarding what I did get (most of it):

"I like it."

...

BTW I just realized how well the SD backswing transitions into the downswing. It's kind of neat.

That high right elbow comes down...........pulling the club down to a spot where you can really accelerate it at the ball on the (desired) inside path.

I really can see and "feel Nicklaus" right now. (no jokes) I am channeling him. It really is a dynamic move, yes?

I honestly haven't spent much time with the SD pattern. Gasp!

Soon enough though no doubt. Now I can't wait to try it more.

It didn't *click* with me so much at the time it came out. At that time whenever I tried a right elbow that high and left wrist that non-arched it was death for me.

(shanks always and erratic clubface control, wild right misses)

I think I will do better with it now though.

Late night discoveries at the computer.

Eating hot peppers and sippin' on Grand Marnier.

("...laid back with my mind on my money and my money on my mind...")
 
Last edited:
J

James Marshall (Hogan1953)

New member
Leo,

I've had similar experiences with some of my students, especially the poorer players, if they get too far across the line with the right elbow too far away from the ribcage, they don't seem to be able to get it back on the body fast enough and the result is a very steep start-down which requires an early lift of the left shoulder to get it back on plane and often an overcompensation leading to pushes and hooks depending on the face. In this sequence of John Daly you can see how the shaft is above the seam of the right shoulder. I've noticed that Brian's shaft is sometimes in the same spot.

It gives them too much work in too short a period of time, it seems to me.

[media]http://asafgolf.free.fr/images/golf/swings/daly_96_profilar.jpg[/media]

James
 
huestisc

huestisc

New
Hogan1953 said:
I've had similar experiences with some of my students, especially the poorer players, if they get too far across the line with the right elbow too far away from the ribcage, they don't seem to be able to get it back on the body fast enough and the result is a very steep start-down which requires an early lift of the left shoulder to get it back on plane and often an overcompensation leading to pushes and hooks depending on the face.
James
Click to expand...

Hey James, you're talking about ME!

Hope all is well,

Clay
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top