Question to teachers...

[Mathew]

When considering on changing the pupils swing, you first go to the range and check out their motion. The pupil swings away and you see with by eye that this person has some technical problems that really are hurting his results.

You decide you really have to go back to basics with this guy and you know this is going to be a dilligent pupil and going to be very dedicated to his swing and will work over years. Now having the ability to make this person to swing how you decide to swing would you base the swing model on differing body differences. Would you teach a 6'3 (like me when barefoot) and 145 lbs with good flexability different to someone 5'5 and chubby ?

And to TGM ppl - would you base components on the swing model one will adopt already naturally in their current swing thus already grounded and based in accordance to their body shape?

 

[Brian Manzella]

This is a really good question.

I have a student coming in from Germany to work with me all week.

I'll keep all of you up-to-date on what I am doing with him, how he is doing with it, and why.

 

[EdZ]

It always will come back to balance, and swinging a rock on a string - supporting the swinging force.

Every golfer needs to understand that, and the 3 imperatives.

I find that once folks really get the concepts, a few well placed image drills or 'feel' drills can do much more than words ever can, and yes, you need to adjust the choice of drills and motions to fit that individual student and their current motion - to 'shape' it to 'ride the rim' - to 'aim' the rim, and to 'stay on it via rotation'

'how' one learns to 'support the swinging on plane force in balance' doesn't really matter, as long as they obey the swinging club, and what it 'needs' to do.

 

[densikat]

EdZ:

What about hitters? It is my understanding they cant do the rock on the string thing as they are pushing rather than pulling

 

[FanofHogan]

I'm not a teacher, but I would have to say that video is probably the biggest thing that has helped me. I suspected many of the faults I had but finally seeing them helped force me into wanting to make a change.

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by densikat

EdZ:

What about hitters? It is my understanding they cant do the rock on the string thing as they are pushing rather than pulling

Ah, but THAT is the key that you must understand - a hitter IS supporting a rock on a string.

Physics - think of pulling vs. pushing a wagon

The physics doesn't change, only the perception of it. There is an outstanding quote on the TGM site, I believe it was patrick (my appologies if I have it wrong)

Does the horse pull the wagon, or push the collar?

I don't know - you'll have to ask the horse.

Physics is physics - hitting or swinging is only a perception of HOW you 'support the swinging on plane force'

If you 'push' too much, just like the wagon, you'll be going all over the place - but get the right amount of 'support' and you'll be in the middle of the short stuff - you still can't 'break that string' - you can only support it, and flow with it.

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

quote:Originally posted by densikat

EdZ:

What about hitters? It is my understanding they cant do the rock on the string thing as they are pushing rather than pulling

Ah, but THAT is the key that you must understand - a hitter IS supporting a rock on a string.

Physics - think of pulling vs. pushing a wagon

The physics doesn't change, only the perception of it. There is an outstanding quote on the TGM site, I believe it was patrick (my appologies if I have it wrong)

Does the horse pull the wagon, or push the collar?

I don't know - you'll have to ask the horse.

Physics is physics - hitting or swinging is only a perception of HOW you 'support the swinging on plane force'

If you 'push' too much, just like the wagon, you'll be going all over the place - but get the right amount of 'support' and you'll be in the middle of the short stuff - you still can't 'break that string' - you can only support it, and flow with it.

Ed, you are sounding like a cross between George Hibbard and a YODA wannabe. Push Pull Push Pull, I'm waiting for Faye Dunaway to get slapped in Chinatown. In a rotary action, pull and push are yin and yang. Ed, I think you put physics over geometry too often.

 

[densikat]

Ahh EdZ I think that quote on the TGM site was referring to how to find out whether a player is a hitter or swinger, you ask them!

Here is a quote from Yoda on the subject:

"get a big whiffle ball, the size of a soft ball. Tie a 3-foot or so piece of cord to it and start Swinging. This is the "rope" handle technique of the Swinger. The line is the "rope" handle that you use to "Pull" (or whirl) the whiffle ball. If you were a Hitter, you would Push against an 'axe' handle. And, of course, our little whiffle ball & line would be worthless. Can't Push against a string!"

 

[EdZ]

No, but you can push against the point of contact - the hands, PP1 in that case. It is all part of the lever.

Care to elaborate on your statement 6bee1dee?

Chinatown, good flick, and an important part of history to understand... at least Mono Lake has survived, despite the Owens Valley fiasco

 

[EdZ]

And the yin and yang of push/pull is a matter of perception, if you are supporting the swinging force correctly, but only if it is 'perfectly' correct - alas, as with all actions in golf, you must understand the too much, not enough, and just right - the draw the fade the straight shot - that there is a choice between which side of perfect you error on, but perfect is still a push and a pull - it's just impossible to do often, if ever.

Push me, pull you..... a strange creature indeed

 

[Burner]

Pull the clubhead DOWN into the ball and then PUSH right through it to a full finish.

You cannot push that which is behind you, clubhead behind the hands in to impact. Neither can you pull that which is in front of you, clubhead in front of hands post impact.

'Aint golf a simple game until people get involved?

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by Burner

Pull the clubhead DOWN into the ball and then PUSH right through it to a full finish.

You cannot push that which is behind you, clubhead behind the hands in to impact. Neither can you pull that which is in front of you, clubhead in front of hands post impact.

'Aint golf a simple game until people get involved?

Wow...we agree, [^] LOL.

 

[tgmer]

I watched the video by Mike Hebron yesterday. He mentioned about hitting and swinging. In swinging, he said use rotation (pivot) to transfer the club to the ball, no power from the arms. I tried that, and it is difficult without applying at least some pushing from the right or pulling from the left arm. Does that means my current swing does not have enough pivot from the dwonswing, therefore need the arms to swing through, that also make the left arm not coming back to centre as quickly? Relaxing the arms and just use the pivot, somehow I can feel the lag of the club, easy swing but feel no control on the club.

 

[hue]

tgmer: It would seem you have a dodgy pivot from your posts.

 

[EdZ]

tgmer - 'swing as if you had no arms' - let them be free, like a wet noodle - focus on the turn/plane of the shoulders, and feel like you hit the ball with the back of your left shoulder and the hands and arms just 'fall' from the inside, and are swung through by the body, to a fully balanced finish, facing the target

combine that feel with a 'slight' stretching/extensor action of the right hand

 

[Brian Manzella]

Is this now a HITTING vs Swinging Thread??

Anyhow...

First what to do to make a golfer better...

The average player has a very open clubface position at the top of the backswing and both throws-it-away AND comes 'over' it to try to not slice it.

FIX THE GRIP and FIX THE CLUBFACE and fixing the rest is not too tough.

The good player usually swings TOO FAR to the right and 'times the flip', so to speak.

With them fix the PATH (plane LINE) and THEN you can fix the clubface and lag.

A NEW Golfer needs a VERY CLEAR understanding of DELIVERY LINES and a basic set-up and basic pivot BUT A PERFECT GRIP.

Alternatively, you can give them EDUCATED HANDS first and built from short to long...but it takes MORE time in the short term.

Hitting vs. Swinging

YOU CAN'T hit with a string and a weight...CAN'T. AND you CAN'T add leverage (HITTING) to a swing...only way to do both is to SWING to RELEASE POINT and HIT through the shot.

Brian vs. Yoda

I can answer a question without my book

 

[EdZ]

Agreed - the definition of 'supporting the swinging force' - pull, then push - or do both, but 'push' can not win, or you break the string

you can 'support' the 'hands' that are swinging the string - extensor action - which past impact 'feels' and becomes a push - prior to impact, it is always a pulling force - the illusion is the extensor action 'feel'

hitting is a perception at best - pushing a wagon is hard to do, pulling, much easier and more true - if you didn't 'pull' and only 'pushed', you would fight physics, just like the wagon

Brian, are you and yoda going to bust out the west side story songs anytime soon?

 

[Brian Manzella]

I re-read your post three times ed and it STILL makes no ...er...can you re-write please?

I made JOKE about me and yoda....but like i have said a MILLION TIMES before, I will have a teach-off with anyone.

 

[cdog]

Edz, are you saying your rear hand is helping the lead hand pull through, using pp#1?

 

[EdZ]

The lead hand is always swinging, the trail hand is always hitting

If the lead hand wasn't swinging, and the trail was only hitting, you would have throw away - so the trail hand can only 'hit' to the extent that the lead hand 'swings' - the trail hand can not 'win'

cdog - the trail hand is providing 'support' to the structure of the lead hand/arm/lever. Post impact, that support 'feels like' a 'hit', but that hit is never more than the lead arm 'swing' (or pull, depending on how you personally feel it)