QUESTIONS FOR THE EXPERTS

[faux_maestro]

1) Does address hand height effect pop-out?
2) Does address hand height have an effect on getting across the line or laid off at the top of the backswing?

I suppose you could substitute the angle between the left forearm and clubshaft for hand height. Closer to straight line=higher hands.

Any thoughts?

 

[ekennedy]

By the sheer fact that you can have or not have pop out with high or low hands and you can have an across the line or laid off position from either one would lead me to believe that they are independent and not an absolute.

 

[duckjr78]

I have found that lowering my hands at address, and thereby making it harder to overrotate my left arm/club, helps me not pop out as much. I can get the right wrist bend motion much easier. JMHO.

 

[BrendanC]

Harder with high hands in my experience.

I think popout indicates flawed left hand grip (too much in fingers).

 

[faux_maestro]

I have found that lowering my hands at address, and thereby making it harder to overrotate my left arm/club, helps me not pop out as much. I can get the right wrist bend motion much easier. JMHO.

Well, so far this is what I've found. Experimenting today, I lowered my hands, less pop-out, kept the hands inside the club head longer, less layoff at the top. I was wondering if this is what others have found or if this is just something that worked for me.

It's amazing too how much easier it is when I set up with a square face. I'm experimenting with how to practice getting the face square at address. I've been battling a shut face at impact and some other stuff.

 

[faux_maestro]

Harder with high hands in my experience.

I think popout indicates flawed left hand grip (too much in fingers).

Popout is harder with high hands?

My problems are a little popout, club gets inside the hands fast, lift to the top and a laid off position. Then lots of other problems coming back down. I probably under turn too. Working on the pivot drill Brian has on here.....can't find the pic. or thread but it was the drill with a club running from the left shoulder to right hip.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Yeah, I would think popout would be a *little* more likely with lower hands. Let's say they are so low that they are fully cocked. It would just seem to me that with them fully cocked, it would be more difficult to get the hand path inside. Although, I'm just hypothesizing.






3JACK

 

[BrendanC]

I thought "popout" was hands go out/ clubhead goes in?

 

[Richie3Jack]

I thought "popout" was hands go out/ clubhead goes in?

Just hands out. Club can go anywhere. Thus the hands 'pop out" from the distance apart from the body that it was at address.





3JACK

 

[BrendanC]

Ah fair enough.

I was only talking about the (horribly frustrating!) 'fault' of hands move out/clubhead moves in.

 

[faux_maestro]

Ah fair enough.

I was only talking about the (horribly frustrating!) 'fault' of hands move out/clubhead moves in.

This is me.....has been since I can remember. Hands lower/more angle is helping.
I've been working on a bunch of changes and this along with NOT setting up with a closed face has helped everything else lock into place. I'll put up a video or two to show the changes and maybe get some more ideas.

 

[BrendanC]

I think the popout fault Faux_maestro is talking about happens because the movement of the hands hands "out" happens in tandem with the clubhead working "in" - to the inside and under the hands.

I think it is caused by the right hand not working properly and would focus my attention there - particularly on not allowing the right hand to bend back. A no wrist cock feeling works for me.

I think low hands will result in wrist cock at setup and is to be avoided as a fix for this particular fault. It might feel better, but in my own experience was not a long term fix.

 

[faux_maestro]

I think the popout fault Faux_maestro is talking about happens because the movement of the hands hands "out" happens in tandem with the clubhead working "in" - to the inside and under the hands.

Yes.....mainly club in. My hands don't go out TOO much but it is still there.

I think it is caused by the right hand not working properly and would focus my attention there - particularly on not allowing the right hand to bend back. A no wrist cock feeling works for me.

I've played well with the no wrist cock feeling before. This also forces me to turn more to get the club to the top-another fault, under turning. Not allowing the right wrist to bend: is it just allowing the right wrist to bend too much? Or is the fault allowing it to bend too early? I'm having some success right now with a move of not letting it bend early. The opposite of twist-away?

I think low hands will result in wrist cock at setup and is to be avoided as a fix for this particular fault. It might feel better, but in my own experience was not a long term fix.

I would say that my hands are not "low" necessarily. I've always noticed in my set-up on video that my hands tend to get high.......very little angle between left forearm and club. I worked on getting the hands lower last summer with some success. Earlier this year I was working on some stuff, I'll not mention what it was here, but it lead to hands getting high/straight lines between shaft and club. I'll post up some video over the weekend, some before and after shots to see the difference. My guess, from what I saw last year, is that there isn't much difference between what I was doing before and what I'm doing now.

My comments above in red.

 

[faux_maestro]

Harder with high hands in my experience.

I think popout indicates flawed left hand grip (too much in fingers).

This may be. For me I think it's a posture/setup problem. I tend to not bend enough from the waist and bend the knees too much. I know TGM is out around here, but are the wrist conditions still valid (level, cocked etc.)? I know my wrists at setup before were arched (as opposed to level) at address. I think it's usually a posture issue for me (and a gut problem.....it gets in the way sometimes ). I think my grip is ok, BUT like I said I'll post up some swings and some shots of my grip. I might be wrong in my assessment.

 

[BrendanC]

Look forward to seeing video.

Interesting you mention knee bend - I tried this too! Get some great strikes but again, I think it's not the long term solution. Requires a very hard downswing.

I think the popout you're talking about stems from the right wrist bending back to the max in the backswing is a fake good feeling (I built my whole swing round this for a couple of months once - pretty much had my right elbow buried in my right hip too! I wanted to hit down and out ).

So I try to have no right wrist bend in the backswing, and eliminate all wrist cock that does not occur naturally in the backswing. This allows my to have a much calmer downswing (now possible to hit short irons!). Still a work in progress!

I read a good point made in another thread (think it was Brian discussing David Toms) that helped a lot - basically, it said that wrist cock does not equal lag (or power).

So there is no need to bring masses of wrist cock into the downswing.

Re: twistaway - and you're other points - I would also be v. intererested to hear expert opinion.

 

[faux_maestro]

Look forward to seeing video.

Interesting you mention knee bend - I tried this too! Get some great strikes but again, I think it's not the long term solution. Requires a very hard downswing.

I think the popout you're talking about stems from the right wrist bending back to the max in the backswing is a fake good feeling (I built my whole swing round this for a couple of months once - pretty much had my right elbow buried in my right hip too! I wanted to hit down and out ).

So I try to have no right wrist bend in the backswing, and eliminate all wrist cock that does not occur naturally in the backswing. This allows my to have a much calmer downswing (now possible to hit short irons!). Still a work in progress!

I read a good point made in another thread (think it was Brian discussing David Toms) that helped a lot - basically, it said that wrist cock does not equal lag (or power).

So there is no need to bring masses of wrist cock into the downswing.

Re: twistaway - and you're other points - I would also be v. intererested to hear expert opinion.

Twistaway was invented to fix OTT slicers right? Get the face square to closed then you can fix the path because the incentive to come over the top is gone. I need the opposite. I used to get shut and because I didn't know the D-plane would slide my hips too much and not turn to block the face open and swing too much inside out. I can hit some unreal hooks. I'm getting there though with the help of the forum. Just understanding the D-plane helped a lot.......I only learned about it 6 months ago. Better late than never but SHEESH I could have saved a lot of time and money.

 

[faux_maestro]

For anyone interested, this is the pivot drill I was talking about earlier, bottom of Brian's first post.

http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/3675-perfect-pivot-part-1-backswing.html