Questions on flipping, not flipping, and the associated ball flights

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golfman5900

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Hi everyone,
I've been working on getting rid of my flip and I think I may have actually done it! The downside is that I can't play with the non-flip swing. It produces a low draw that enjoys turning into a pull draw/pull hook. I think this is probably a result of how I personally stopped flipping (i.e. the motion I make). Additionally, my non-flip swing seems pretty steep and that causes some contact issues as well.

It's strange because I always thought that having my hands ahead at impact would be the holy grail of golf....but I'm way worse. I actually shoot better (a lot better) with my little flip. What gives?

With my little flip I can shape the ball both ways and I prefer to play a fade because big draws scare me :p

Here's a comparison:

My swing with the little flip: ‪Golf swing July 26th Slow mo.wmv‬‏ - YouTube
My non-flip swing: ‪Swing Aug 02.wmv‬‏ - YouTube

Thanks,
Golfman
 
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Billy McKinney

New
"What gives?"--the feeling you get in the 2nd is too contrived to swing freely. The wrist conditions aren't much "better", so maybe this issue is simply not the holy grail. I teach people all day that have flat wrists, lag, are on plane...and can't keep it on the range because they can't control the club FACE or hit the sweetspot.
Want to work on something? Passify your right hip, leg, and foot through the start down and impact. Make vid of that and post it...watch what happens.
 
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BertramSterling

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As a side note:

Is it valid to say that with a flip the back of the left wrist would face the target (at impact), and the more you flip it, the more this would happen to square the face? (due to the lack of forward lean)

And therefore the more forward lean at impact, the more of a 45 degree angle the back of the left wrist takes at impact?

I have a tendency to want to hit every shot with the back of the left wrist facing the target..this would have squared my club up before I learned to not flip it (and twistaway!).
 
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ej20

New
golfman5900 said:
Hi everyone,
I've been working on getting rid of my flip and I think I may have actually done it! The downside is that I can't play with the non-flip swing. It produces a low draw that enjoys turning into a pull draw/pull hook. I think this is probably a result of how I personally stopped flipping (i.e. the motion I make). Additionally, my non-flip swing seems pretty steep and that causes some contact issues as well.

It's strange because I always thought that having my hands ahead at impact would be the holy grail of golf....but I'm way worse. I actually shoot better (a lot better) with my little flip. What gives?

With my little flip I can shape the ball both ways and I prefer to play a fade because big draws scare me :p

Here's a comparison:

My swing with the little flip: ‪Golf swing July 26th Slow mo.wmv‬‏ - YouTube
My non-flip swing: ‪Swing Aug 02.wmv‬‏ - YouTube

Thanks,
Golfman
Click to expand...

I don't see a flip in your flip swing.In fact,shaft lean is bordering on too much with this swing already.Shaft lean is bordering on absurd with your "non-flip swing" thus the reason for your low smothered shots.
 
Olof Karlson

Olof Karlson

New
Just an observation: The sequence from the top is a lot different in the non-flip video compared to the flip video. In the non-flip version, your arms move a lot faster from the top.
 
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Jared Willerson

Super Moderator
ej20 said:
I don't see a flip in your flip swing.In fact,shaft lean is bordering on too much with this swing already.Shaft lean is bordering on absurd with your "non-flip swing" thus the reason for your low smothered shots.
Click to expand...

I agree, I don't see much flip either.

I am starting to think that a "bending" left wrist through impact is better than some held flat left wrist.

A golfer still has to get the sweet spot out to the ball. They can do this by straightening the right arm or by shifting the right shoulder out there (and keeping the right elbow bent). I think straightening the right arm and getting in the classic release position post impact is much preferred to the shifted out right shoulder held off chicken wing'd left elbow release.

IMO, this golfer has too much axis tilt and too much hip slide. However, I like the way he releases it. It is preferred, IMO, over the Zach Johnson type of release
 
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Virtuoso

Virtuoso

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There is no flip on either swing, and too much forward lean with both. Way too much hip slide on both, and to the extreme on the second to keep from "flipping." Generally, when the hips slide instead of turn, the arms rotate to counter balance.....so, the club is already closed on the backswing and then as the hips slide more on the second swing, the forearms rotate more. As the forearms rotate more, and the shaft is already leaning too much, you get a closed and hooded club face, deep divot and a low smother hook.
 
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gailfcno

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Virtuoso said:
There is no flip on either swing, and too much forward lean with both. Way too much hip slide on both, and to the extreme on the second to keep from "flipping." Generally, when the hips slide instead of turn, the arms rotate to counter balance.....so, the club is already closed on the backswing and then as the hips slide more on the second swing, the forearms rotate more. As the forearms rotate more, and the shaft is already leaning too much, you get a closed and hooded club face, deep divot and a low smother hook.
Click to expand...

hello virtuoso

interesting post could you explain how hip slide can cause the forearms to rotate more, and close the face, thank you.
 
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ekennedy

New
The same reason a lack of hip rotation in the backswing causes the clubface to rotate open, a lack of rotation through the ball causes the clubface to close. As your arms meet resistance, they rotate.
 
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golfman5900

New
Hi everyone,
Thanks very much for the replies. I'm not trying to get extreme shaft lean in the non-flip video, that's just the way my swing goes when I try to not flip at all. It has a lot of wedding ring up type feel to it. I can hit some good shots with the swing with shorter clubs. Generally though the launch angle is too low and the shots aren't really playable.

As for the little flip swing, I still feel the flip in that swing is a big problem in terms of consistent contact. I personally don't think there is a lot of shaft lean in that swing either, although I think I might be getting confused as to what I should see in a good swing. Didn't Hogan and Trevino have hands ahead and significant shaft lean at impact?

I've really lost my confidence in my swing and I've been shooting in the mid to low 90's lately....I probably lose a ball every second hole on average:eek: . I used to be a 5 cap when I played a controlled draw. Now if I try to "just swing" I hit a hook. My solution is to try to come over the top and hit a fade, which can work really well. The only problem is that I don't know what I'm really doing. Sometimes I hit a 10 yard fade with a driver, other times a 60 yard slice. Alternatively, I also enjoy straight pulling my shots into trees/water:p.

Maybe this is all a result of my big hip slide? What can I do to stop it?

Thanks again,
Golfman
 
faux_maestro

faux_maestro

New
golfman5900 said:
Hi everyone,
Thanks very much for the replies. I'm not trying to get extreme shaft lean in the non-flip video, that's just the way my swing goes when I try to not flip at all. It has a lot of wedding ring up type feel to it. I can hit some good shots with the swing with shorter clubs. Generally though the launch angle is too low and the shots aren't really playable.

As for the little flip swing, I still feel the flip in that swing is a big problem in terms of consistent contact. I personally don't think there is a lot of shaft lean in that swing either, although I think I might be getting confused as to what I should see in a good swing. Didn't Hogan and Trevino have hands ahead and significant shaft lean at impact?

I've really lost my confidence in my swing and I've been shooting in the mid to low 90's lately....I probably lose a ball every second hole on average:eek: . I used to be a 5 cap when I played a controlled draw. Now if I try to "just swing" I hit a hook. My solution is to try to come over the top and hit a fade, which can work really well. The only problem is that I don't know what I'm really doing. Sometimes I hit a 10 yard fade with a driver, other times a 60 yard slice. Alternatively, I also enjoy straight pulling my shots into trees/water:p.

Maybe this is all a result of my big hip slide? What can I do to stop it?

Thanks again,
Golfman
Click to expand...

I think Trevino did with the wedges. I think your pivot looks more "slide" than turn/snap, especially downswing. Have you searched any of the pivot threads? There is one I think it's titled "perfect pivot", it's old but I think it has some good info, and the "Pull back, run up, jump" thread has some good stuff. I think for you, it's all about getting the pivot working better. That way, if you want a flat wrist you can have it without as much lean/downward attack.
 
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golfman5900

New
Ok I found the second half of the Perfect Pivot thread, but not the first. Can anyone post a link to it? Also, do any of Brian's video's go over how to learn how to pivot?

Thanks!
 
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gailfcno

New
ekennedy said:
The same reason a lack of hip rotation in the backswing causes the clubface to rotate open, a lack of rotation through the ball causes the clubface to close. As your arms meet resistance, they rotate.
Click to expand...

thanks very much ekennedy, that makes sense.
 
Virtuoso

Virtuoso

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ekennedy said:
The same reason a lack of hip rotation in the backswing causes the clubface to rotate open, a lack of rotation through the ball causes the clubface to close. As your arms meet resistance, they rotate.
Click to expand...


I think that's a pretty good explanation of the bio-mechanics, and I would add that excess hip slide creates more "slack" in the system, ie, the hips aren't pulling the shoulders very efficiently, which in turn aren't pulling the arms. So, the arms tend to then flail and rotate instead of chase.

(...and so begins the tale of the buts)

But, that is not to say that all golfers who slide automatically over-rotate the arms, so the sliding hips don't create that as a bio-mechanical certainty. The real problem is that all golfers are rightly trying to use whatever movements they have at their disposal to square the face, and when good golfers get too much hip slide, they tend to over-compensate with the arms. BUT, that doesn't mean the face will always be closed at impact. Sometimes they are trying to spin the face and it doesn't make it. BUT, in this particular case, he already has the face shut on the way down.....add some aggressive rotation to that and he is much more likely to see hooks.

It's all a game of statistics: based on how sound your clubhead delivery is in path, attack, dynamic lofting, and closure rate, what is most likely to happen when you arrive to strike the ball? Based on what Tour Pro's do, a good shot is darned likely.

So, Golfman5900, the pivot action should look more like this (you should see a huge difference in hip movement):

‪Anthony Kim 6 iron Perfect slo mo by Carl Welty.wmv‬‏ - YouTube
 
counterfall

counterfall

New
Golfman5900,
I have mentioned 2 things in your Pattern Questions thread that others here have touched on;
Tame the right side on the downswing and reduce the slide toward the target on the downswing. In the Pattern Questions thread, you revealed that you have ACL laxity in the left knee so you may be compensating by not straightening it or the laxity may have come from supporting your slide (and body weight) to the left so late in the swing. Either way, you would do better by straightening your leg before impact to help turn your slide into rotation, as Anthony Kim does. The slide may be moving your path too much to the right contributing to the hooks that you are experiencing.

Again, the transition looks good to me right up until you continue to slide.
 
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