Real physics in action

Status
Not open for further replies.
There is the notion of resistance to impact deceleration. We have also the intuitive notion that one can somehow increase the effective striking mass of the clubhead. Burner has now added another version, i.e., increasing the duration of collision, leading to increased velocity.

- - - hitting right through the ball, sustaining the line of compression, increases the time of collision between ball and clubhead and subsequently contributes to an increase in the velocity given to the the ball through its impact with the clubhead.

.

Hence, he states above that exerting a force through impact,

(1) increases the dwell time, and as a consequence,
(2) Increases the ball departure velocity.

His post is nicely written and uses the typical pseudo scientific language which people like to hear. See for instance, Spike’s reaction:

“I've learned a lot from the scientific posts of mandrin and the other guys and I say thanks.
But, I find much more solice in the words of the burner....I love it when he talks dirty like this!”


Even if Burner proudly concludes his post with, “Now that is physics in action”, let’s see together if his idea really holds any water. His basic premise is that we can increase impact dwell time with an external force applied by the golfer.

Impact dynamics is governed by Hertzian contact mechanics and a recent scientific paper by Prof I. R. Jones in Science and Golf IV, - 'Is the impact of a golf ball Hetzian?' -, contains some very interesting information.

He studied various impacts, from the violent impact with driver to the gently tap in of a putter and found that over this huge dynamic range for impact forces the dwell time only varied very little, from 0.00037 sec for driver to 0.00085 sec for gentle tap in with putter.

One can reasonably estimate, as an order of magnitude, that the impact force for the violent impact using a driver is about 100 times that for a gently tap in with a putter. Hence a variation of approximately 2000 lbs in average impact force only produces about 0.0005 sec variation in dwell time.

The golfer with a “line of compression sustaining force” of about 4 lbs will therefore be able to change the dwell time only by about 0.2 %. This conclusion dispels hence completely and convincingly with Burner’s theory. A sustaining force has a negligible influence on duration of dwell time. However we are not finished yet. ;)

Prof Jone’s experimental findings also showed that increasing velocity goes hand in hand with decreasing dwell time Even this last experimental finding by itself is sufficient to dispel with Burner’s theory, since he believes increasing velocity to be associated with increasing dwell time.


Now that’s real physics in action!
 
nice post mandarin very informative, i enjoy hearing real scientific data from experts like you quoted instead of the pseudo science often found in golf.
 
Mandrin.....you blow me away, dude!!!

It seems, now, that sustaining the line of compression has more of an effect on the accuracy of the shot at hand. Would this be more like it?

Although I may not be able to understand the language of the equations you and the guys talk about, I've still learned a great deal though your fantasic posts.The last one was incredible.

I've hit some very special drives in my life where it "felt" like the ball literally stayed stuck on the clubface so much that I acutally had to look at the clubhead after the finish. I swear to God that I thought I would have to pry it off. Don't know what that equates to or why it felt that way but man I launched it!!!:eek:

I know now (through your posts) that it is impossible to resist impact deceleration just due the stubbornness of mass at rest. Knowing this I still want to produce an uninterupted swing motion. Am I trying to live an impossible dream?:(
 
IMO those are all feel items. What it boils down to is you get your hands in the right spot (which means your arms are (which means your body is)) to where you can fully release the club through and PAST impact. Hogan's section on supination pretty much gives this argument, you get that "sweet feeling", you hear a crack, etc. TGM "physics" of sustaining compression, resisting impact deceleration etc.. are really just a failed explanation of what happens.
 
Has Brian ever thought of a Brian Manzella Academy "Staff Physicist" position?:)

Vote for Mandrin!

TGM still defines the correct geometry for ideal impact but the mythology of the physics has been sorted out - good job so far, thanks Mandrin.
 
Has Brian ever thought of a Brian Manzella Academy "Staff Physicist" position?:)

Vote for Mandrin!

TGM still defines the correct geometry for ideal impact but the mythology of the physics has been sorted out - good job so far, thanks Mandrin.

Second that motion!!!

All those in favor say......E=MC.....uh...sump'un
 

Burner

New
There is the notion of resistance to impact deceleration. We have also the intuitive notion that one can somehow increase the effective striking mass of the clubhead. Burner has now added another version, i.e., increasing the duration of collision, leading to increased velocity.


Hence, he states above that exerting a force through impact,

(1) increases the dwell time, and as a consequence,
(2) Increases the ball departure velocity.

His post is nicely written and uses the typical pseudo scientific language which people like to hear. See for instance, Spike’s reaction:

“I've learned a lot from the scientific posts of mandrin and the other guys and I say thanks.
But, I find much more solice in the words of the burner....I love it when he talks dirty like this!”


Even if Burner proudly concludes his post with, “Now that is physics in action”, let’s see together if his idea really holds any water. His basic premise is that we can increase impact dwell time with an external force applied by the golfer.

Impact dynamics is governed by Hertzian contact mechanics and a recent scientific paper by Prof I. R. Jones in Science and Golf IV, - 'Is the impact of a golf ball Hetzian?' -, contains some very interesting information.

He studied various impacts, from the violent impact with driver to the gently tap in of a putter and found that over this huge dynamic range for impact forces the dwell time only varied very little, from 0.00037 sec for driver to 0.00085 sec for gentle tap in with putter.

One can reasonably estimate, as an order of magnitude, that the impact force for the violent impact using a driver is about 100 times that for a gently tap in with a putter. Hence a variation of approximately 2000 lbs in average impact force only produces about 0.0005 sec variation in dwell time.

The golfer with a “line of compression sustaining force” of about 4 lbs will therefore be able to change the dwell time only by about 0.2 %. This conclusion dispels hence completely and convincingly with Burner’s theory. A sustaining force has a negligible influence on duration of dwell time. However we are not finished yet. ;)

Prof Jone’s experimental findings also showed that increasing velocity goes hand in hand with decreasing dwell time Even this last experimental finding by itself is sufficient to dispel with Burner’s theory, since he believes increasing velocity to be associated with increasing dwell time.


Now that’s real physics in action!

Nice try Mandrin BUT the Hertzian stuff you quote has its foundation in an "inelastic" frame of reference, where balls were bounced off static objects of greater mass.

The "Impulse-Momentum Change Theorem" stuff that I quoted emanates from an "elastic" collision perspective where the momentum of the object with the greater mass continues on its original course right through impact and beyond.

This prolonged application of the force of impact changes things.

The force multiplied by the time is known as the impulse and the mass multiplied by the velocity change is known as the change in momentum. The impulse experienced by an object is always equal to the change in its momentum. In terms of equations, this was expressed as

Impulse = F*t

Momentum change = m* Av (please excuse the inappropriate symbol A - you know of the correct one)

F*t = m* Av

This is known as the impulse-momentum change theorem.

Real Physics in a practical context and relevant to the game of Golf.
 
Nice try Mandrin BUT the Hertzian stuff you quote has its foundation in an "inelastic" frame of reference, where balls were bounced off static objects of greater mass.

The "Impulse-Momentum Change Theorem" stuff that I quoted emanates from an "elastic" collision perspective where the momentum of the object with the greater mass continues on its original course right through impact and beyond.

This prolonged application of the force of impact changes things.

How are term "inelastic" and "elastic" used here? I'm used to them referring to the efficiency of the collision in terms of kinetic energy conservation, but if I'm interpreting these comments correctly, you're using them a little differently in saying that the "Hertzian" experiment used a collision where one of the members (static?) had an external force applied (like a wall) so it couldn't move. Conversely, in your "elastic collision" example, you are implying that both objects are not being held by an external force. Just asking for clarification because if it was just a "frame of reference" change (moving vs at rest), I wouldn't expect the impact interval to change.
 
Struttin My Stuff

by Elvin Bishop

I'm struttin' my stuff, ya'll
I'm struttin' my stuff, ya'll
I'm struttin' my stuff, ya'll
I'm struttin' my stuff, ya'll

You all might like to hustle
Or do the...bump
Or any dance you want
When I get out on the floor
I just wanna strut my stuff

Got a pretty mama in Atlanta
Ain't nothin' but a Georgia peach
Strutted her stuff all the way
Down to West Palm Beach

I'm struttin' my stuff, ya'll
(Everyday--every night, ya'll)
I'm struttin' my stuff, ya'll
(Watch me work out one time people)
I'm struttin' my stuff, ya'll
I'm struttin' my stuff, ya'll

Carolina, Georgia,
Tenn-e-see
I strut my stuff out any ol'
Place I be

Lousiana, Florida,
Al-a-bam
I like it down there
'Cause it ain't no ham like
Birmingham

I'm struttin' my stuff, ya'll
(I think I got it, ya'll)
I'm struttin' my stuff, ya'll
(Watch me workout one time, ya'll now)
I'm struttin' my stuff, ya'll
I'm struttin' my stuff, ya'll

(I like the way you move
Can you get up and dance now?
Can you get up and dance now?
I like the way you get up
I like the way you move)
 
Concise physics for the confused.

Nice try Mandrin BUT the Hertzian stuff you quote has its foundation in an "inelastic" frame of reference, where balls were bounced off static objects of greater mass.

Burner, I don’t have the impression that you really know what it is all about. Let’s forget about me. I am not talking about a theory I have invented or experiments I have done but about the experimental findings of a well known expert, Prof I. R. Jones. What you are hence clearly implying is that Prof Jones doesn’t know what he is doing when using the Herzian theory for collisions between ball and clubhead. It takes some darned impressive credentials and quite some guts to discredit a well known expert’s experimental findings. FYI, his conclusions are that the Herzian theory fitted his experimental findings very accurately.

Contact mechanics originated with a famous paper by Heinrich Hertz (1882) giving the solution for the frictionless contact of two elastic bodies of ellipsoidal profile. Hertz’ analysis still is the corner stone of many design procedures used in many industrial situations involving elastic solids.

Hertz, H. (1882), ‘On the contact of elastic solids’, J. Reine Angewandte Math.

What on earth could you possibly have against Hertzian contact mechanics, Hertz is the sole founder of it all? Everyone has built on his shoulders.

The "Impulse-Momentum Change Theorem" stuff that I quoted emanates from an "elastic" collision perspective where the momentum of the object with the greater mass continues on its original course right through impact and beyond.

This prolonged application of the force of impact changes things.

It is clear from above that you have a very romantic and very personal interpretation of the science dealing with impacts. ;) I really don’t know where you are going with your "inelastic" frame of reference and "elastic" collision perspective. I am really puzzled by your post. I don’t feel we are using the same science.

Impact dwell time is 0.0004 sec notwithstanding the bigger mass (clubhead) moving in the same direction as the smaller mass (ball) after impact. There is no prolonged application of the force on the ball right through impact and beyond.

Hence your statement, “This prolonged application of the force of impact changes things”, has no meaning, it doesn't change anything.

The force multiplied by the time is known as the impulse and the mass multiplied by the velocity change is known as the change in momentum. The impulse experienced by an object is always equal to the change in its momentum. In terms of equations, this was expressed as

Impulse = F*t

Momentum change = m* Av (please excuse the inappropriate symbol A - you know of the correct one)

F*t = m* Av

This is known as the impulse-momentum change theorem
.

You are obviously thinking in terms of a force acting on one object only. Impact however involves two colliding objects. Whatever force you are applying to the clubhead it can’t act more than 0.0004 sec of impact duration. A very, very different situation, rendering your approach pointless.

Recommended reading,

(1) Physics for Dummies by Steve Holzner
(2) Complete Idiot’s Guide to Physics by Johnnie T. Dennis
(3) Physics for the Utterly Confused by Robert Oman and Daniel Oman
 
Last edited:

Erik_K

New
My master's degree was based heavily in Hertz contact mechanics. My advisor also taught a class in contact mechanics and I worked with NASA engineers on a damper contact problem for the alternate high pressure fuel turbopump that supplies the fuel to the Shuttle Engines.

Generally speaking, when someone says something, is "Herzian" they mean that the contact (or pressure) distribution between the two bodies (in contact) is elliptical and Hertz (and others) have solutions in closed form. His equations assume contact between non-conforming bodies (cylinder on a flat plate, etc). You can certainly apply Hertz's theories to dynamic problems-but has Burner stated, this isn't a quasi-static problem. Hertz's seminal work (late 1800s) was based on experiments in involving glass lenses that he pressed together. Clearly that's something different than what we are looking at here.

I have read many of Mandrin's posts and it's neat to pick at the myths and/or convictions that have survived over the ages, but I don't think any of this has any practical use for the struggling golfer. I think it's obvious that the club, or head, does not gain any mass-so the idea of hitting with a 'higher effective mass' makes no sense to me. But what Homer was probably getting at, is the FEEL. It FEELs more powerful when you lag the sweetspot and really trap that ball in the ground. It FEELs like you are dragging a wet mop through impact. And to better describe that FEELing, Homer (and others) use the term effective mass.

If anything, maybe Homer could have used a better term or analogy for that. I will agree with Mandrin on one front. I don't take TGM as gospel and blindly follow every word, phrase, and diagram as though God also handed this information down on the reverse side of the stone tablets that contained the 10 Commandments.
 
Tablets are easily broken...

Well said, especially the last parapraph.
G2M

I agree... Mandrin is nor trying to rubbish the product of Homer Kelleys teaching ( which I read as 3 dimensional impact with clear definition of impact interval and alignments as well as a catalogue of typical components)... but rather to correct any aberrant physics... to make his conclusions more defendable from those who would pick at his conclusions because his physics was inaccurate or terminology slightly less than MIT professor- level.

TGM and Homer's work can go forward if the physics explaining his correct and intuituve conclusions is 100% waterproof.

It is going forward already because TGM influenced instructors are using the toolbox to fix peoples swings... but detractors of Homers work will look to pick holes... if TGM LLC want to fix the holes then Mandrin's knowledge is at the very least a "finger in the dyke". Perhaps a metaphor too many for some ...:)

To say Homer was descibing feels , re. "effective mass", is to not understand Homer's writing ethos. He sets out to describe mechanics and lets the user identify their own feels to aid their repetiton. Maybe Homer was wrong on this ... I think that you are correct and he has given a "feel" the credence of scientific rigor and called it "mass"...

Erik K ... your training is another wonderful opportunity for us non-physics trained people to get access to you guys who can walk the walk... not easy to get access( for free) to guys like you and Mandy!
 

Erik_K

New
I agree... Mandrin is nor trying to rubbish the product of Homer Kelleys teaching ( which I read as 3 dimensional impact with clear definition of impact interval and alignments as well as a catalogue of typical components)... but rather to correct any aberrant physics... to make his conclusions more defendable from those who would pick at his conclusions because his physics was inaccurate or terminology slightly less than MIT professor- level.

TGM and Homer's work can go forward if the physics explaining his correct and intuituve conclusions is 100% waterproof.

It is going forward already because TGM influenced instructors are using the toolbox to fix peoples swings... but detractors of Homers work will look to pick holes... if TGM LLC want to fix the holes then Mandrin's knowledge is at the very least a "finger in the dyke". Perhaps a metaphor too many for some ...:)

To say Homer was descibing feels , re. "effective mass", is to not understand Homer's writing ethos. He sets out to describe mechanics and lets the user identify their own feels to aid their repetiton. Maybe Homer was wrong on this ... I think that you are correct and he has given a "feel" the credence of scientific rigor and called it "mass"...

Erik K ... your training is another wonderful opportunity for us non-physics trained people to get access to you guys who can walk the walk... not easy to get access( for free) to guys like you and Mandy!

Golfbulldog,

That's a great post. I understand that Homer attempted to 'decode' the golfswing and he tried to write down his understanding of the physics and geometry as best he could with the tools and education he had. There's nothing wrong with questioning why Homer chose to describe or define this or that term, or this or that component.

The thing is, on THIS site, you rarely see someone posting questions about any given chapter of Homer's book. Here, Brian strives to use TGM as a TOOL and uses his own metaphors and experience to give us great lessons and pointers through this website. Other TGM instructors just parrot back some exerpt from the text as if that's going to answer my question.

I am sure various aspects of TGM are flawed or at the very least not explained very clearly. There's always room for improvement.
 
Mandrin....still learning from ya.........but can you just mellow it out a bit? Hate to read all these little put downs........its a real distraction.:(
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Golfbulldog,


The thing is, on THIS site, you rarely see someone posting questions about any given chapter of Homer's book. Here, Brian strives to use TGM as a TOOL and uses his own metaphors and experience to give us great lessons and pointers through this website.

Heeeeey....i haven't stole EVERYTHING from Brian ;)
 
dwell time

My master's degree was based heavily in Hertz contact mechanics. My advisor also taught a class in contact mechanics and I worked with NASA engineers on a damper contact problem for the alternate high pressure fuel turbopump that supplies the fuel to the Shuttle Engines.

Generally speaking, when someone says something, is "Herzian" they mean that the contact (or pressure) distribution between the two bodies (in contact) is elliptical and Hertz (and others) have solutions in closed form. His equations assume contact between non-conforming bodies (cylinder on a flat plate, etc). You can certainly apply Hertz's theories to dynamic problems-but has Burner stated, this isn't a quasi-static problem. Hertz's seminal work (late 1800s) was based on experiments in involving glass lenses that he pressed together. Clearly that's something different than what we are looking at here.

I have read many of Mandrin's posts and it's neat to pick at the myths and/or convictions that have survived over the ages, but I don't think any of this has any practical use for the struggling golfer. I think it's obvious that the club, or head, does not gain any mass-so the idea of hitting with a 'higher effective mass' makes no sense to me. But what Homer was probably getting at, is the FEEL. It FEELs more powerful when you lag the sweetspot and really trap that ball in the ground. It FEELs like you are dragging a wet mop through impact. And to better describe that FEELing, Homer (and others) use the term effective mass.

If anything, maybe Homer could have used a better term or analogy for that. I will agree with Mandrin on one front. I don't take TGM as gospel and blindly follow every word, phrase, and diagram as though God also handed this information down on the reverse side of the stone tablets that contained the 10 Commandments
.
Erik_K,

Let me remind you that this thread is about Burner’s idea that one can increase the dwell time of impact.

Hence, it is not about picking on any myth or convictions that have survived over the ages.

It is neither about Homer, effective mass, dragging wet mops, lagging sweet spots or trapping the ball in the ground.

It is to be noted that you haven’t made a single comment about the subject matter of this thread, i.e., dwell time. ;)
 

Erik_K

New
Erik_K,

Let me remind you that this thread is about Burner’s idea that one can increase the dwell time of impact.

Hence, it is not about picking on any myth or convictions that have survived over the ages.

It is neither about Homer, effective mass, dragging wet mops, lagging sweet spots or trapping the ball in the ground.

It is to be noted that you haven’t made a single comment about the subject matter of this thread, i.e., dwell time. ;)

Thanks for pointing that out.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top