Regarding this "debate..."

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Being bored at work, this debate could be a very interesting distraction. So, in the interest of me selfishly looking for a sideline activity, I submit the following:

The rules of this debate need to change. Alford doesn't have a shot in the currnet format, but not because he doesn't know what he's talking about or can't communicate clearly. I don't know what he knows or doesn't know, but he certainly puts his thoughts into words well, and he seems like he's got a good sense of humor and, for my money, on open mind and a willingness to listen, digest, and respond. That's rare, and I think it's a sign of intelligence.

Brian is the same way, in my opinion. He, too, listens and digests. So we have the makings for a good debate here, which could possibly be very informative for others on the site and at the very least will provide an interesting reprieve from a normal work day.:)

The structure of the debate needs to change, I think, so that David Alford will participate on a more level playing field.

From what I know of Brian, he ain't going to back down to a fair fight. No way. I don't know Alford, but from his posts I see a willingness to rumble.

My suggestion is to have the forum come up with a list of topics for these guys to debate. I don't think we're going to get anywhere with Brian and Alford throwing out topics. It's never a fair debate when one of the debaters picks the topic, because he's already got a huge advantage -- he's steered the entire discussion into a realm in which he wants the discussion to reside. Reference Michael Moore in any of his ridiculous interviews lately (all he does is ask whether you would send your child to Fallujah -- a false premis). Also, what the hell are they debating? Are they debating whether or not The Golfing Machine is the best instructional manual ever written? Is the purpose to determine who knows more about the golfing, or who the better teacher is? Are they trying to determine who Bobby Clampett's teacher was?

The thing is, for this debate to work, there must be a clearly defined point to it all.

Let's get one so I have something to read at work. :D
 
Matt, if there was more time for everything, I would be glad to accommodate. However, I think it would be even more interesting to compare my swing to Brian's.

That said, I'm on vacation and will be for a month or so.
Thanks for you positive remarks, however.

David Alford
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Which swing of yours David...which swing of MINE?

Matt...this guys has not put one how-to word on this site.

Go ahead David, tell us how to do something....anything......
 
Well, I stated above that I have no idea what he knows and doesn't know. I'd be interested to find out, though. From his brief posts on this site, he seems like he makes his own decisions about the golf swing, which I like.

If I had to bet, which I've been known to do once or twice, I'd bet that Brian would mop the floor with David Alford in a fair debate about golf swing mechanics. Make no mistake, if there was actually going to be a race, Brian would be my horse, er, my itallion stallion. I want to know that Homer Kelly's teachings are valid so that if I master them, my game will improve. I think that's what most die hard TGMers want.

But I'm more than willing to listen to well crafted dissent. And from his postings, Alford seems like he may be able to play the antithetical role. For a guy who came to a TGM website and challenged Homer, I think the guy handled himself pretty good. He didn't flame anybody or anything.

Mikestloc, if there was no Oklahoma, would we know how good LSU was last year? If there's no heat, do we know what cold feels like? I was hoping that Alford would be Apollo Creed to Brian's Rocky Balboa, and was trying to provide the impetus to start from a level playing field so that we could enjoy the exchange. Who doesn't like to watch heavyweights swap leather? We all know Brian's a heavyweight; it remains to be seen about Alford.

Maybe I'm giving Alford to much credit because I used to come off picks and knock down the trifecta like Steve Alford.

Maybe any playing field with Manzella at one end and Alford at the other will always be tilted. Maybe Brian knew all along that Alford is just one like many others that stays on the sidelines and takes pot shots. Maybe I'm naive, hoping to see a good clean debate.

At any rate, it looks like we'll have to wait for David's vacation to end before anything else goes down.
 

Ryan Smither

Super Moderator
You said that you have no golf credentials but you want to come on here and talk about "let's compare swings"?
It's a golf forum so debate THE swing, not WHO can swing better.
You sound like a self-glorified golf swing impressionist to me.
 
Well, why don't you apply the same argument toward HK and TGM?
Whatya' think of him taking 25 yrs. to catalog a bunch of swing impressions? Where's his own swing, blah blah.

And his golf credentials were what, again?
 
Better credentials than you, D.A. and you are working on 50 years to publish your book. Excuse me, I mean birdcage liner. I've been following this hoax of yours for weeks now and you have said, "Nada, Nix, Nil, Nothing". Every opportunity you have been presented to demonstrate one sliver of golf teaching prowess, you have squirmed and recapitulated and avoided. You are a phony. Step up and say something smart, quickly, or get lost! Based on your contributions up to this point you have nothing to offer or you would have , already. I follow this site to learn from Brian and others," What ya,got?".
 
Corky, you're quite the objectivist, aren't you? Let me get this straight - HK takes 25 plus yrs to write one book and receives truckloads of praise for his research time. I have been working on mine (as in bookS)for 15 yrs. and receive what - criticism for taking 50 yrs? Am I taking too long or not long enough? Would you care to explain what the heck your point is?

You know, I really don't mind valid criticism. You can challenge my logic or something specific (btw, I DID contribute specifics, you need to read or reread my analysis of HK's comments on BC's swing in the swing forum), but to sit in front of your monitor and make these blatantly biased - and contradictory - comments shows how desparate you are to score a point.

It's weak. Very weak.

And that goes for you, Brian. You should be big enough to say, "well, wait a second, HK also took a long time...or similar".

But no.

My friends, here you have a microcosm of why their is so much hate in the world. I.e., if your belief system is different than mine, you will dump the rules of fairplay and try to win at any cost- even the cost of making yourself look like an idiot.

Now, here is the solution. Learn to debate by arguing your opponent's position. Observe you opponent doing the same. Or just learn to debate by using a semblance of fair play. You can argue hard, very hard. But try to some semblance of logic.

Now, for the record, just what here HK's credentials again as he was writing TGM? And are you inspired by the fact it took 25 plus yrs. for him to finish it, or are you appalled by that time factor? Inquiring minds want to know.
 
David --------name something that Homer wrote in his book that you can prove wrong or even what you think is wrong. Join us and learn or continue fighting against the likes of Brian ,Holenone and the work of Homer.'
 

Lisa Manzella

Manzella Golf Academy BrianManzella.com Administra
David...hope the free 'name recognition advertising' you are getting here suits your needs.

But...you have not submitted ONE idea of your own on this forum.

not one.

So...either do so or I'll move you right off the front page for good.
 
Stop grandstanding and deliver, D.A.! Everyone is on to you. Its getting embarrassing for you. So dazzle us or be gone. The smoke and mirrors and double talk, won't cut it anymore.
 
this guy did the same thing on a natural golf forum that was on voy.com several years ago. dispute others opinions particularly those who put in a ton of actual work. I have heard nothing productive from him yet. i for one am tired of having to weed thru the crap, not been a whole lot of productive learning going on since this has been going on. (post edited to be less personal in nature)
 
quote:Originally posted by bsbsbs

this guy did the same thing on a natural golf forum that was on voy.com several years ago. dispute others opinions particularly those who put in a ton of actual work. what a fake. i for one i'm tired of having to weed thru his crap, not been a whole lot of productive learning going on since he's been around too much dealing with DA (stands for dumb a$$)

I agree w/ bsbsbs however disagree w/ B.S.
Personally this subject/threads is/are too personal.
Have enjoyed the site for some time but am tiring of wading through the above.
Please, all, let it go!
 

holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by David Alford

Now, for the record, just what here HK's credentials again as he was writing TGM? And are you inspired by the fact it took 25 plus yrs. for him to finish it, or are you appalled by that time factor? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Bold by Holenone.]

SuperDave, a.k.a., Inquiring Mind...

I continue to respond only as I see a benefit the readers of this Site:

Credentials: Homer Kelley was a born 'problem solver' without an engineering degree who worked for the Boeing Corporation, the world's leading manufacturer of aircraft.

"There was no title for what I did."
-- Homer Kelley

During the last few years of his career, there was only one signature that could release a B-47 as ready technically for sale. That signature was his.

Time Factor: By his own admission, Homer was not proud of the fact that it took him so long. "You guys," he said to the five of us gathered in his den, "could have done it much sooner." Sure. Sooner as in 'never.'

Results (you forgot to ask about this): He got it right.

Be heartened, SuperDave. You've been at it fifteen years, and you've only got another thirteen to go. Stay with it!

But remember The Standard:

Get it right.
 
"You guys," he said to the five of us gathered in his den, "could have done it much sooner."

Did the five iclude Yoda, Gregg Mchatton, Mike Holder?
 

holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by drewitgolf

"You guys," he said to the five of us gathered in his den, "could have done it much sooner."

Did the five include Yoda, Gregg Mchatton, Mike Holder?

Yes. And John Fey and Steve Snyder.
 
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