Right elbow visible under left arm in backswing.

[Jimmy A.]

Perhaps I am caught up on something that isn't as important as I'm making it out to be, but never the less, here I am caught up on it. During my backswing sometimes my right elbow becomes slightly visible underneath my left arm when viewing my swing from directly in front (not down the line). I probably would have never noticed this had it not been for the fact that I did go take a lesson from a MORAD guy and, in going through "the positions", that is something he pointed out and said it was because there was too much roll in my arms which was causing me to get to the inside. I might not be so hung up on this if not for the fact that, when I watch most all of the pros in slow motion, their right elbows are never visible under their left arm during the backswing. That leads me to believe that what I was being told was probably true. I have a pretty nice set up here at home where I have 3 walls which are all mirror in the same room, so I am able to watch my swing from multiple angles simultaneously. When I am practicing in front of the mirror, I am usually checking my down-the-line view for plane, but I am also watching my head-on view for the right elbow. Often times I'll be able to see the right elbow, slightly, but when I look at the down-the-line view I appear to be on plane.

My question is, is this as important as I'm making it out to be here? I keep wanting to just forget about it, but I get hung up on it when I see that NONE of top professionals (that I can think of, anyway) are in a position where that right elbow is visible underneath the left arm in the backswing. If this is really a flaw, what can I do to fix it? I don't feel like my arms are rotating at all. I feel like my right wrist bends backward, while my left wrist rotates only enough to accomodate the bending of my right wrist. Often times I won't bother doing any bending of the right wrist, or rotating of the left, just for the sake of trying to keep my right elbow above the left arm (from a face on view, of course) during the backswing. Sometimes I end up in a position that looks good at the top from all angles, but to be honest, I'm not even really sure what I did (or didn't do) to get there, so I don't feel like it is a repeatable motion for me yet.

Anyway, I'm posting this stuff out of desperation. I've gotten to the point that I haven't even bothered going out and hitting balls lately. I figure, if I can't even make a motion that looks good in the mirror, with no ball, why bother aimlessly beating balls at the driving range? [xx(]

 

[BigBadDonkey]

Same problem I have and have no idea how to fix it. You're right .. all the best pros in the World never have the right elbow under the left in the backswing.... never, EVER, seen one.
I do notice Yoda has a backswing with this flying right elbow?
It's a 'maintain the triangle thing I guess, down to lack of proper turnpivot, and bending right arm too quickly. A handsy, armsy type swing would cause this problem maybe. The left arm just goes up and the rest just folds .
Instructers are clueless... .

 

[jeffy]

I spent quite a bit of time working with Carol Mann on this two weeks ago...it is a problem she also had struggled with. In my case, it was caused primarily by wrapping my arms too much around and behind my body; however, that doesn't really sound like your problem. FWIW, I solved my problem by stopping any pulling of the arms back, focused my rotation more in the torso and tried to keep the left arm closer to the ground than the right throughout the swing.

In your case, a lot of it might have to do with posture. If you stand erect and your shoulders rotate on a more horizontal plane (as in a Hardy two-plane swing), your left arm will cover the right much sooner than someone who has a bent over posture and a steeper shoulder turn (as in a Hardy one-plane swing). Swing sequences of Hardy two-planers Bernhard Langer, the "old" Phil Mickelson and Hale Irwin show each of them with the right elbow clearly visible below the left half-way into the backswing. If you are a Hardy two-planer, as most handicap golfers are, your backswing motion could be fine. Your confusion could be caused by the fact that many, if not most, of the finest golfers are Hardy one-planers, who stand more bent over the ball. With a bent over posture, the right arm will naturally stay above the left as long as the shoulders rotate at right angles to the spine.

 

[palmreader]

If you maintain butt of the club looking at the plane line, right elbow will be covered with the left arm. Just a suggestion...

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

quote:Originally posted by palmreader

If you maintain butt of the club looking at the plane line, right elbow will be covered with the left arm. Just a suggestion...

EXACTLY...just learn to trace a straight plane line and it won't be an issue.

 

[BigBadDonkey]

If I do that my arms just go back straight and round, and I can't seem to establish any wrist break. Feels very wooden and 'inside'. any tips?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

If you're using some sort of flashlight and/or laser to trace a perfectly straight plane line, you're "on plane" for the entire stroke. If it feels "off" to you its because you've probably been "off plane" for a very long time.

Do you have to trace the plane line the entire time? No
If you don't, will there be re-routing? Yes

---

the more the inside the takeaway with no compensations the more you should swing out to the right of the plane line and produce a draw. The more the outside the takeaway with no compensations the more you'll swing out to the left of the plane line and produce a fade.

Those aren't absolutes but just generalities.

 

[birdie_man]

Good post jim. What about a power fade (swinging from the inside but the ball fades instead of draws)?

I think Norman (Greg) said this is what made him such a good driver.

 

[bendet2]

Just to clarify, is "plane line" that you are all talking about the plane that the club establishes at address? What are some things that can be done at the range to practise taking the club back on plane?

 

[Jimmy A.]

quote:Originally posted by jim_0068

If you're using some sort of flashlight and/or laser to trace a perfectly straight plane line, you're "on plane" for the entire stroke.

As it turns out, I do have one of those laser trainers. [8D] I took it out, dusted off the cobwebs, and worked with it for a while this afternon. As it turns out, my problem was easily fixed. I was getting off plane because my shoulders stopped turning before my arms stopped. Once I started focusing on completing the backswing with my shoulder turn, I stayed on plane pretty easily. I went to the driving range tonight and had one of the better practice sessions that I've had in a while.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

quote:Originally posted by birdie_man

Good post jim. What about a power fade (swinging from the inside but the ball fades instead of draws)?

I think Norman (Greg) said this is what made him such a good driver.

If you're a swinger, you just need to learn how to angle hinge instead of horizontal hinge through impact. It is a "holding off" sensation for the swinger. I'm still trying to figure out how to do it myself and still be confident w/o it flying waaaaaay right. So far i've been successful with a slightly back ball position and a very slightly open stance but keeping the ball at my intended line of flight. What this does is essentially open your plane line to promote a fade.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

quote:Originally posted by bendet2

Just to clarify, is "plane line" that you are all talking about the plane that the club establishes at address? What are some things that can be done at the range to practise taking the club back on plane?

the plane line is an imaginary line drawn on the ground that the ball sits on that goes for infinity in both directions. You want either the clubhead or the butt end of the shaft pointing at this plane line for the entire stroke (ideally). The only time one part isn't pointing at the plane line is when you're parallel to it. Meaning at hip high, and at the end of your backstroke, IF you get to parallel.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

quote:Originally posted by Jimmy A.

quote:Originally posted by jim_0068

If you're using some sort of flashlight and/or laser to trace a perfectly straight plane line, you're "on plane" for the entire stroke.

As it turns out, I do have one of those laser trainers. [8D] I took it out, dusted off the cobwebs, and worked with it for a while this afternon. As it turns out, my problem was easily fixed. I was getting off plane because my shoulders stopped turning before my arms stopped. Once I started focusing on completing the backswing with my shoulder turn, I stayed on plane pretty easily. I went to the driving range tonight and had one of the better practice sessions that I've had in a while.

Good for you man, don't worry so much about "positions." Learn the wedge alignments, and your impact alignments and then just trace a straight plane line. If you can do all that, you should be able to play some pretty good golf.

 

[birdie_man]

quote:Originally posted by jim_0068
Good for you man, don't worry so much about "positions." Learn the wedge alignments, and your impact alignments and then just trace a straight plane line. If you can do all that, you should be able to play some pretty good golf.

Good post Jim...he knows his stuff guys.

Hinge Action on an Inclined Plane = the golf stroke in a jist.

Learn proper hinging and trace a straight line and as Jim said, you now have the meat and potatoes, I guess. Just need some spicing *BAM*! [8D]

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

lol....the spice is the flat left wrist baby!