Search for the Perfect Swing

Status
Not open for further replies.
E

EdZ

New
Came up in another thread. I'd like to know more about Lynn's post:

------------
holenone

For the record, 1968 would be the year before TGM's 1969 publication. Also for the record, Search For The Perfect Swing is chock full of errors -- not to mention omissions -- fifty of which Homer Kelley noted and sent to Gary Wiren, then head of instruction for the PGA, at his request.

holenone
---------------------


I don't agree with their specifics, but I do agree with their basic model. What, if any, errors were part of their specific basic model? If so, why are they errors?

This is what I have been asking all along. I think their basic model, is a great summary of how force moves in the swing, regardless of where it is seen as relating to the body.

Is that list something you can share some/all of? I'd like to learn more.

Thanks Lynn
 
N

njmp2

New
After Wiren viewed the errors as Homer submitted them - the follow up book to a "Search for a perfect swing" was cancelled. Tough being perfect with so many mistakes.
 
rwh

rwh

New
EdZ,

Not sure where I should post this question.

SFTPS describes a two lever system. Where is the location of the fulcrum, weight and force for each lever?
 
E

EdZ

New
From another post about power in the swing, sums up the levers:

IMO it is the 'leverage' you create with your shoulders and arms, and the 'speed' you create in the wrists (transfer power).

Specifically the 'long lever' you have - your arm span - which creates a class 1 lever over your center, between the shoulders on your back. This lever gives you MASS when properly utilized (keep the "7" per Austin). The center of mass is a point on your back, not sternum, which you turn 'around' during the swing.

It is this lever that lead many to say it is the 'right shoulder' or the 'right hand' that provide the power - the right hand is one end of the lever, the left hand is the other.

Lever 1 - class 1 lever - shoulders arms hands - give MASS

Lever 2 - class 3 lever - wrists - give SPEED

Remember FORCE is both MASS and SPEED

You need both, most don't have mass because they are out of sequence (throw away)

The entire body, ideally, supplies the force to move lever 1, by moving the shoulders, which supply power to lever 2 through transfer power or simple flail like release.

The power of the body is transfered "along the chain" from the ground up, in a whip like movement. As each 'link' passes the power down to the link below it, it becomes 'in line'. The fully 'in line' condition of the FORCE is achieved at both arms straight, always ahead of the ball, because low point is below the ground.
 
S

Squishband

New
EdZ, simple question.... in your model and maybe TGM if you agree... where is the shaft pointing at both arms straight?

The reason I am asking is that due to injury I am devising a low effort swing... Following the tenets of a closed-loop kinetic chain I am figuring out what body-parts/muscles stop and therefore transfer energy/force and when... it makes sense to me that the last part of the chain to stop moving forward is the left arm - this cracks the whip; the left arm still rotates it just stops moving forward... in this procedure the arms straight position would have the shaft pointing at the ground about 3' to 4' in front of the leading foot.... is this different from the TGM swinging procedure and your modified view of same... BTW I think I understand your ongoing argument... it sounds like you are trying to reconcile leverage (Mike Austin) with rotation (Swinging)
in this...

It really was an eye opener watching the super slo-mo swings at the Tour Championship. From delivery to both arms straight EVERYTHING slows down except the clubhead... Definitely a crack the whip motion.... Also how similar that is amongst almost all the swings... I am in no doubt that resistance is very very important in good swings...
 
G

golfie

New
quote:Originally posted by EdZ

From another post about power in the swing, sums up the levers:

IMO it is the 'leverage' you create with your shoulders and arms, and the 'speed' you create in the wrists (transfer power).

Specifically the 'long lever' you have - your arm span - which creates a class 1 lever over your center, between the shoulders on your back. This lever gives you MASS when properly utilized (keep the "7" per Austin). The center of mass is a point on your back, not sternum, which you turn 'around' during the swing.

It is this lever that lead many to say it is the 'right shoulder' or the 'right hand' that provide the power - the right hand is one end of the lever, the left hand is the other.

Lever 1 - class 1 lever - shoulders arms hands - give MASS

Lever 2 - class 3 lever - wrists - give SPEED

Remember FORCE is both MASS and SPEED

You need both, most don't have mass because they are out of sequence (throw away)

The entire body, ideally, supplies the force to move lever 1, by moving the shoulders, which supply power to lever 2 through transfer power or simple flail like release.

The power of the body is transfered "along the chain" from the ground up, in a whip like movement. As each 'link' passes the power down to the link below it, it becomes 'in line'. The fully 'in line' condition of the FORCE is achieved at both arms straight, always ahead of the ball, because low point is below the ground.
Click to expand...

EdZ,

This may be your most confused post to date. I like the way you've capitalized FORCE, MASS and SPEED. Is this so that we can identity these entities as being your own as opposed to the scientifically correct versions?

But seriously, to understand the golf swing you need to understand conservation of angular momentum and torques. Forget the rest of this jumble.

Golfie
 
E

EdZ

New
quote:Originally posted by Squishband

EdZ, simple question.... in your model and maybe TGM if you agree... where is the shaft pointing at both arms straight?

The reason I am asking is that due to injury I am devising a low effort swing... Following the tenets of a closed-loop kinetic chain I am figuring out what body-parts/muscles stop and therefore transfer energy/force and when... it makes sense to me that the last part of the chain to stop moving forward is the left arm - this cracks the whip; the left arm still rotates it just stops moving forward... in this procedure the arms straight position would have the shaft pointing at the ground about 3' to 4' in front of the leading foot.... is this different from the TGM swinging procedure and your modified view of same... BTW I think I understand your ongoing argument... it sounds like you are trying to reconcile leverage (Mike Austin) with rotation (Swinging)
in this...

It really was an eye opener watching the super slo-mo swings at the Tour Championship. From delivery to both arms straight EVERYTHING slows down except the clubhead... Definitely a crack the whip motion.... Also how similar that is amongst almost all the swings... I am in no doubt that resistance is very very important in good swings...
Click to expand...

At both arms straight the club shaft points back to center. To be more specific, the 'sweet spot' line of force does.
 
bcoak

bcoak

New
EDz: "Remember FORCE is both MASS and SPEED"
No, Force is a product of mass and acceleration (F = M*A) per Newton.
So in your model, how do you maximize acceleration (and thus force)?
From an article on Newtons Laws "For an external applied force, the change in velocity depends on the mass of the object. A force will cause a change in velocity; and likewise, a change in velocity will generate a force. The equation works both ways."

To be honest, I don't think your theory holds up to Newtons laws or Homers.
 
E

EdZ

New
I love how you guys think what I am describing is in disagreement with physics.

Homer's Law's?

Now that if funny, he now has his own laws?
 
bts

bts

New
quote:Originally posted by golfie

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

From another post about power in the swing, sums up the levers:

IMO it is the 'leverage' you create with your shoulders and arms, and the 'speed' you create in the wrists (transfer power).

Specifically the 'long lever' you have - your arm span - which creates a class 1 lever over your center, between the shoulders on your back. This lever gives you MASS when properly utilized (keep the "7" per Austin). The center of mass is a point on your back, not sternum, which you turn 'around' during the swing.

It is this lever that lead many to say it is the 'right shoulder' or the 'right hand' that provide the power - the right hand is one end of the lever, the left hand is the other.

Lever 1 - class 1 lever - shoulders arms hands - give MASS

Lever 2 - class 3 lever - wrists - give SPEED

Remember FORCE is both MASS and SPEED

You need both, most don't have mass because they are out of sequence (throw away)

The entire body, ideally, supplies the force to move lever 1, by moving the shoulders, which supply power to lever 2 through transfer power or simple flail like release.

The power of the body is transfered "along the chain" from the ground up, in a whip like movement. As each 'link' passes the power down to the link below it, it becomes 'in line'. The fully 'in line' condition of the FORCE is achieved at both arms straight, always ahead of the ball, because low point is below the ground.
Click to expand...

EdZ,

This may be your most confused post to date. I like the way you've capitalized FORCE, MASS and SPEED. Is this so that we can identity these entities as being your own as opposed to the scientifically correct versions?

But seriously, to understand the golf swing you need to understand conservation of angular momentum and torques. Forget the rest of this jumble.

Golfie
Click to expand...
"class 1 lever" in vertebrates? "FORCE is both MASS and SPEED"? .......???????

I know, he messed this one up pretty bad, despite the effort.
 
C

corky05

New
Squishband, Do you crack a whip more efficiently with one hand or two? Did you ever chase some one around a pool a snap them with your towel? One hand or two?
 
C

corky05

New
Lever 1 - class 1 lever - shoulders arms hands - give MASS (wrong)

Lever 2 - class 3 lever - wrists - give SPEED(wrong)

Remember FORCE is both MASS and SPEED (wrong)

Three for three, its tough to be that incorrect. You have to really practice.
 
E

EdZ

New
quote:Originally posted by corky05

Lever 1 - class 1 lever - shoulders arms hands - give MASS (wrong)

Lever 2 - class 3 lever - wrists - give SPEED(wrong)

Remember FORCE is both MASS and SPEED (wrong)

Three for three, its tough to be that incorrect. You have to really practice.
Click to expand...

**** you Corky
 
E

EdZ

New
quote:Originally posted by bcoak

EDz: "Remember FORCE is both MASS and SPEED"
No, Force is a product of mass and acceleration (F = M*A) per Newton.
So in your model, how do you maximize acceleration (and thus force)?
From an article on Newtons Laws "For an external applied force, the change in velocity depends on the mass of the object. A force will cause a change in velocity; and likewise, a change in velocity will generate a force. The equation works both ways."

To be honest, I don't think your theory holds up to Newtons laws or Homers.
Click to expand...

fine, mass and acceleration (speed)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top